Two Words Out Of Place?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by HAMel, Feb 3, 2015.

  1. HAMel

    HAMel
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    Many Biblical Scholars are of the opinion that specifically in one area (Eph 1:4&5) the King James Translators got it wrong. Note, below, verse 4 ends with, "In Love".


    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Some are of the opinion that "...before him" should end the sentence and that, "In Love" should begin verse 5.

    Read verse 5 by inserting those two words..., "In Love...." having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...,

    What say you?
     
  2. Greektim

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    Probably the best (and only?) syntactical reason for beginning the phrase with "in love" rather than ending one is b/c many of Paul's clauses in this run-on sentence begin with a prepositional phrase "in him" or "in whom". Grammatically, a prepositional phrase is more adverbial than adjectival. Therefore, it fits better describing a verb ("having predestined") rather than nouns or adjectives acting as nouns ("holy and blameless"). It also makes logical sense that "love" would describe God's act of predestination more than it would how we should be "blameless and holy". But that is more conjecture.
     
  3. HAMel

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    Well Greektim, for sure Paul was a well educated man in his time as were the translators for King James. But I doubt they were in the business of analyzing and/or diagramming sentences in accordance with today's English.

    So, doesn't it just make sense that..., In Love..., we were predestinated? While I understand and appreciate your rationale regarding this..., I have to consider the "intent and purpose" of the verse.
     
  4. Greektim

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    That was my last point about the logic of the passage. It seems to fit better w/ the intent and purpose to place "in love" w/ the following verb "having predestined". But that is more speculative b/c it fits with our theology. Certainly, love is related to our holiness and blamelessness, but it fits (perhaps better) w/ God's predestination. So I would stake the reasons for its syntax on other grounds rather than the logic or as you called it, the "intent and purpose".
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Here is the NET footnote:
    So it would seem the Greek grammar does not rule out either choice.
    Note that the NIV, ESV and NASB, although they left the verse break as is, but did put "In love" as starting the next sentence, thus In love He predestined.... Ditto, YLT
     
  6. Greektim

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    This is not Greek grammar... this is syntax. I wonder if you understand the difference.
     
  7. Deacon

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    Knowing Greek grammar and syntax doesn't even solve the problem. It's up for debate in even the best commentaries.

    There are virtually no differences between the various Greek texts so that's not an issue.

    The difficulty is mentioned in a number of versions.

    Ephesians 1:4–5
    4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us* for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (ESV)

    * Or before him in love, having predestined us

    In love, at the end of 1:4, properly belongs to v. 5, describing predestination, though the ESV footnote indicates that “in love” can also be taken with the preceding phrase (“that we should be holy and blameless before him in love”). Versification was introduced into Bibles in the sixteenth century A.D. for convenience and is not part of the original inspired text.
    Crossway Bibles. (2008). The ESV Study Bible (p. 2262). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.


    4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love,* 5 having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, (Lexham Eenglish Bible)

    * Or “before him, having predestined us in love” (the phrase “in love” could go either with v. 4 or v. 5)


    John Eadie provides a dated but assessable discussion in his Commentary on the Greek Text of the Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians [LINK]. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1883. Page 28ff.

    Rob
     
  8. Greektim

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    If you read my initial post, I admitted that syntax at best offers clues but does not give any definitive evidence. Syntax rarely does. My point, b/c I like to bust on Van and his pseudo-Greek scholarship, is that he used the term "grammar" when in reality this has more to do w/ "syntax". I don't think he really understand the difference.
     
  9. Van

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    Quote without comment
     
  10. Van

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    Returning to topic, what did Paul mean by saying "In love in predestined...." Several commentators indicate God's motivation was being stated, i.e. He predestined us because He loved us. But is that actually the idea? I doubt it.

    If we look at the structure of the passage we find:

    Verse 3 - blessed us..."in Christ." Thus the blessings come to those who God has set apart spiritually in Christ.
    Verse 4 - chose us "in Him."
    Verse 5 - He predestined us "in Love."
    Verse 6 - He bestowed grace on us "in the Beloved."
    Verse 7 - "In Him" we have redemption
    Verse 10-11 - "In Him" we obtained an inheritance
    Verse 13 - "In Him... you were sealed​
     
  11. Greektim

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    Again demonstrating you do not understand the difference. That a preposition in and of itself is adverbial is grammatical. Its relationship to other words outside of the prepositional phrase is syntactical. But to say that Greek grammar doesn't bare on the issue isn't helpful at all b/c the issue is how the prepositional phrase relates to other phrases. Thus it is a matter of syntax. Now I may grant you that syntax is a subsection of grammar in some sense, but as a discipline it is completely different and distinct in its own right.

    My point I originally made is that based on the grammatical function of a preposition, it may hint to its syntactical function in the clause or sentence.

    Now we can continue to squabble over your misnomer or we can actually discuss the passage at hand. Far be it for me to offer you correction when you apparently don't need it and have Greek all figured out.
     
    #11 Greektim, Feb 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2015
  12. Van

    Van
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    Apology accepted!
     
  13. Greektim

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    Your pride astounds me. I can at least be honest. And the only reason I would grant what I did was Wallace's intermediate grammar. Though its subtitle is "An Exegetical Syntax of the NT". Be that as it may... I stand by my words. Syntax is a discipline in its own right and should be distinguished from grammar.

    And... I see you can't deal w/ anything else I said. So don't let your pride blind you any worse than you already are. I don't apologize to the likes of you. I am here to help you.

    And now back to Ephesians.
     
    #13 Greektim, Feb 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2015
  14. Yeshua1

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    Just a side question here...

    Does the predestination of God towards those of us he has chosen to save in death of jesus due to His love towards us, or also perhaps due to Him desiring to glorifing his name, and to honor His Holiness>
     
  15. HAMel

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    ...you folks are funny.

    I will stand without blame before him in love, as in love..., He predestinated.

    ...course, I ain't got much "edumacation" but from what I understand this matter has been debated for years and if we're not careful the issue can certainly become the devils playground causing much division.

    Okay, carry on. I'll be in the area all day. :thumbsup:
     
  16. robustheologian

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    :thumbsup: The note in the NET bible explains it more or less like this.
     
  17. Van

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    Yes, I provided the note and my assessment was spot on. Greektim, who likes to "bust on" me made a spurious charge to disparage me.

    Returning to topic, I think the placement of "In Love" should be at the beginning of the verse 5 sentence, which is where the ESV, NIV, YLT and NASB put it. This is consistent with Dr. Wallace's footnote in the NET.

    Now the meaning of the phrase "In Love" could indicate the motive of the predestining, so several commentaries, but I disagree. I think the phrase indicates where we are when God predestines us, i.e. our location - spiritually in Christ. This view would be consistent with the overall structure of the passage, Paul listing the various blessings of grace that are bestowed on us who have been placed spiritually in the Beloved.
     
    #17 Van, Feb 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2015
  18. Yeshua1

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    Placed there by the direct act of the will of God!

    Before the foundation of the world...
     
  19. Greektim

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    who me?

    ;)

    Again... so sorry for thinking that you might want to learn from someone who is more educated in the field in which you were discussing. My bad... completely in the wrong in that regard. I'll not try to help you again. I promise to let you continue to sound ridiculous to the experts and pseudo-intellectual to the ignorants.
     
    #19 Greektim, Feb 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2015

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