U.S. Military Fatalities in Iraq by County of Permanent Residence.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ivon Denosovich, Jan 24, 2008.

  1. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich
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    A friend of mine has made a cool new map detailing who dies most often in Iraq. The result: "a disproportionate number of U.S. military fatalities in Operation Iraqi Freedom were residents of counties that fell more than 1.5 standard deviations below the median household income for their respective state." Makes ya think.
     
  2. carpro

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    Only if one hasn't been thinking already.

    It is to be expected. The well off, in general, do not gravitate toward military service.

    Never have, in contemporary times.
     
  3. poncho

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    #3 poncho, Jan 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2008
  4. TomVols

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    You find a map of the home counties of killed American men and women cool?

    I don't know why people get such a turn-on about the socio-economic status of pre-enlistment soldiers. An American in uniform is an American in uniform, deserving of the respect and honor due. The undisputed fact that soldiers tend to not necessarily come from the highest levels of the economic strata should not matter one whit. Americans who CHOOSE to nobly serve their country deserve all the respect due them and more.

    Sorry, I'm just very pro-veteran. Many in my family have served and died and I honor them and all who have. It's high time we all do.
     
  5. KenH

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    Other than probably a very, very tiny minority of the population, we all do.
     
  6. TomVols

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    I believe you do, Ken.

    From the link:

    Disproportionate to what control variable? The total population? The sample of soldiers? Enlistment patterns? I'm just leery of this statement. It gives the impression that the study appears to be one with a bias or preset agenda.
     
  7. Ivon Denosovich

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    Yes, as I find the flow of organized info to be cool. And I respect effort. Have you never thought a war documentary/history book was cool? :rolleyes: Pot thy name is marijuana.
     
  8. Ivon Denosovich

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    I don't know why certain people get so defensive about certain data. If you'd like to make your own map to refute the above, feel free. I look foward to your analysis of the data, which at present, is curiously absent.
     
  9. Magnetic Poles

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    To Tom's point, here is why it matters. The ruling class is from the upper economic strata...they readily send other people's families off to die. Fewer of their own are at risk. Sometimes the military is the only advancement opportunity for the poor, thus they end up being disproportionately impacted.

    As a veteran of the U.S. Army, I too, am supportive of our troops, if not the pointless mission they have been put in harms way to accomplish.
     
  10. billwald

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    Looks like King County, WA is in the highest class. King County has a median household income of around $80k(?) and a median personal income around $40k(?) and one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country.

    With a volunteer army who would volunteer to be cannon fodder for the Bush Oil War? Poor people, people with no sellable skills, and people born into military families. No Bush relatives in any of those classes.

    Or maybe people who like to break things and kill people? In the old days judges would say "Jail or Army?"
     
  11. Ivon Denosovich

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    I've heard of people being sentenced with that option but I always thought it was a joke.
     
  12. billwald

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    " An American in uniform is an American in uniform, deserving of the respect and honor due. . . Americans who CHOOSE to nobly serve their country deserve all the respect due them and more."

    Ya sure, you betcha. Honors and parades for volunteers. I'd rather see my grandkids go to Canada than get killed for international billionaires.
     
  13. Ivon Denosovich

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    If I thought this was a war for international billionaires I would agree. However, I don't see a conspiracy here, just bad policy. (Really, really bad policy but no conspiracy.)
     
  14. carpro

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    Take them there now. Why wait?

    Eliminates the possibility.

    Of course, one of them might go completely insane some day and enlist.

    Oh horrors! Then you'd have to tell him or her how stupid they were. Wouldn't want to be dishonest about it, would you?
     
  15. Ivon Denosovich

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    Well said.
     
  16. poncho

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    You might want to consider a country besides Canada or even Mexico as our militaries are being merged. Our grandkids will most likely face a mandatory two year hitch in the North American Global Defense Force. Maybe they'll get lucky and be able to serve two years at home in DHS instead of "going to the front".

    The military is actually a great oportunity today. Where else can you get useful combat experience (legally) serving your country that on mustering out could land you a sweet $200,000/yr merc job serving the empire with one of the transnational's private armies. Like Black water.

    Gotta look for that silver lining in everything right Carpro? ;)
     
    #16 poncho, Jan 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2008
  17. TomVols

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    Ivan, I just believe you chose a poor word to describe this map.
    Fair enough, as do I, but why get so defensive when I question and query the organization and presentation, and an intimated bias, of information? Would you have us all just blindly accept everything without logic? Seems that way.
    There's nothing to refute in the data. If this is where these fallen soldiers are from, then it is what it is. But to try to extrapolate this into a social commentary is misleading at worst and tenuous at best.
    You can get defensive all you want, but again, my questions regarding the intimated biases of the map and its purpose stand.
    Magnetic Poles, thank you for actually engaging in logical rhetoric here. I disagree with your presupposition that the "ruling class" readily send other people's families off to die. There's no question that in families of the Congress and of this (and most) administrations, Veterans are few. However, (1) We are in an era of an all volunteer army. (2) Because of the presence of well-paying jobs, increased job and educational opportunities, and a mobile workforce (especially opposed to previous generations), incentives for voluntary military service are not as real as before. I bristle when people talk about Bush's military service just as I thought criticism of Clinton's lack of military service was a non-sequitur. The Constitution does not require a Commander in Chief to have served in the military. So I just don't see why all the clamor.
    I don't think this is logically proven. This may be perceived, but I don't know that generalizations and broad-brush statements are best. I just performed a wedding ceremony for an upper income family whose son is an Airman.

    I think our govt should more strongly incentivize military service (better pay and benefits, including free education at a public institution) and retain an all-volunteer force.

    Remember...we have an all-volunteer force. no one forces these kids to join. they have other opportunities. They know the risks. They are not conscripted. And this is the way it should be. The thesis that if "rich kids" were in the military there would be fewer wars, just stands without logical moorings and requires emotional bias instead of empirical reasoning.

    Bush 41 and JFK, both children of privilige, served in the military. Is their service more noble because they are rich? I just don't think so. At the end of the day, when you choose to put on a uniform and go into harm's way, I don't care what your parents bank account looks like - you're a soldier. We make too much of this and forget that an American in uniform is an American in uniform and must be valued as such.

    Good night all!
     
  18. Hardsheller

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    This info really doesn't tell us any more than where the fallen are from.

    I'd like to see a breakdown of volunteers in the military by county to get some idea of whether or not the poorer counties are supplying most of the military personel or not.
     
  19. TomVols

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    See, you're using your noggin. We have no idea what the sample group (or control group) is. So when the map uses terms like "disproportionate," anyone with experience or education in statistical analysis has to ask "disproportionate to what?" It's an incomplete comparison.
     
  20. TomVols

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    I agree for the most part. I think it was bad managment, perhaps bad policy, but definitely no conspiracy and definitely not a war for oil. I mean, where's the oil? Who's stopping us from taking it?
     

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