Understanding Colossians 1:12-20 in light of Scripture.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. jcf

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    ****Colossians 1:12-20 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


    Jesus is the image of YAHWEH, an image is not the real thing itself like a photo is not the real person. We to were created in the image of YAHWEH. Jesus is also called the form of YAHWEH.

    Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Jesus is the form of YAHWEH but not YAHWEH Himself in the same way having a form of godliness is not the real thing.

    2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    Jesus is the firstborn of every creature but not in a biological sense for He was born of Mary but rather in a legal sense having to do with the inheritance. It's a Jewish custom to give all that belongs to the father to the firstborn.

    2 Chronicles 21:3 And their father gave them great gifts of silver, and of gold, and of precious things, with fenced cities in Judah: but the kingdom gave he to Jehoram; because he was the firstborn.

    Being firstborn in the legal term is a status. All throughout the Scriptures we find people losing their firstborn status for different reasons for example.

    1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

    Genesis 25:31-33 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright. And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me? And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    So Jesus is the firstborn in status, where Adam messed up Jesus took over.


    ****for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.



    All things were created through Jesus but not the things we now see but rather the the new creation the world to come the kingdom of God.

    Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Hebrews 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    Hebrews 2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.


    ****And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


    When the bible says that Jesus is before all things it referring to superiority not time. We can see the thought of superiority in the context of the verse.

    Collisions 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    It's clear that from reading your posts you really don't have any ""understanding" of any of the passages of which you pontificate on. As I mentioned in another thread the Greek word (morphe) translated "form" in Phil 2:6 does mean "having the exact image of essence or being" of something which shows Christ by nature is divine. For to have the exact expression to the esssence of Deity means that Christ Himself possessed that Deity, and He possessed it before He became Incarnate. This is especially evident since the word translated "being" in v.6 (hyparcho) means "existing or subsisting". Existing in, or subsisting in, the very essence of God means Christ's being is by nature Eternal.

    This not the same as "schema" the other Greek word sometimes translated "form" and is indeed translated "appearance" in verse 8. "Morphe" is intrinsic, and Diety is intrinsic to Christ's nature, while "schema" is more of an outward appearance.

    Of course, I probably wasted my time even posting this since you completely ignored the last comment I made regarding this same passage. I must say however that the Christ you purport to serve is not the Christ of Scriptures, no matter how you may try to misinterpret them to make your points.
     
  3. jcf

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    Hi DT,

    I agree that Jesus is the exact image. Copies, no matter how accurate they are still copies.

    Jesus is the expressed IMAGE of YAHWEH, we too are the image of YAHWEH.
     
  4. KeeperOfMyHome

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    So . . . I'm just dying to know how you explain who was with God during the creation when He said 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'.

    Julia
     
  5. KeeperOfMyHome

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    If Jesus is only a copy, as we are, how is it that He is sinless?

    Julia
     
  6. Doubting Thomas

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    Wow....my whole explanation of the Greek terms involved went right over your head. :eek:

    But we are manifestly not the morphe of God. Christ was, is, and always will be (subsisting, existing) as having intrinsically the very essence of Diety. That's what Philippians 2:6 literally means. We, on the other hand, are only created in His image (not already existing in the morphe of God) and partakers of His Divine Nature by grace (not eternal intrinsic possessors of the Divine Essence)
     
  7. El_Guero

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    That is sooooo wrong.

    Friend, WHERE ARE YOU GOING?

    Where are you getting this theology?
     
  8. jcf

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    If Jesus is only a copy, as we are, how is it that He is sinless?

    Julia
    </font>[/QUOTE]How was Adam sinless?
     
  9. jcf

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    Wow....my whole explanation of the Greek terms involved went right over your head. :eek:

    But we are manifestly not the morphe of God. Christ was, is, and always will be (subsisting, existing) as having intrinsically the very essence of Diety. That's what Philippians 2:6 literally means. We, on the other hand, are only created in His image (not already existing in the morphe of God) and partakers of His Divine Nature by grace (not eternal intrinsic possessors of the Divine Essence)
    </font>[/QUOTE]Your explination stops at the fact that Jesus is the image of His Father.
     
  10. KeeperOfMyHome

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    If Jesus is only a copy, as we are, how is it that He is sinless?

    Julia
    </font>[/QUOTE]How was Adam sinless?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Uhm, would you care to expound on that a bit? Nobody said anything about Adam. I have no idea what you're talking about. I asked YOU how Jesus could be sinless if He were only a 'copy' of God and I'm still awaiting your reply.

    Julia
     
  11. KeeperOfMyHome

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    jcf, I'm still waiting for you to answer this question as well. Who is the 'us' and 'our' from Genesis 1:26?

    And just to make it easy for you, I'll repeat my other question: how could Christ be sinless if He were only a 'copy' of God? And don't bring u the Adam thing again. I want to know what you have to say about the sinlessness of Christ.

    Julia
     
  12. Doubting Thomas

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    Obviously you haven't read (or can't comprehend what you read) because my explanation did not "stop at the fact" that Jesus is the image of His Father. The meanings of the Greek words for "being" and "form" in Phil 2:6 goes well beyond what you mean by "image", as I have now pointed out several times, and those meanings cannot support your "theology". Your unwillingness to deal with the distinction leads me to believe that you are unable answer my point. Merely asserting otherwise doesn't help you.
     
  13. jcf

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    jcf, I'm still waiting for you to answer this question as well. Who is the 'us' and 'our' from Genesis 1:26?

    And just to make it easy for you, I'll repeat my other question: how could Christ be sinless if He were only a 'copy' of God? And don't bring u the Adam thing again. I want to know what you have to say about the sinlessness of Christ.

    Julia
    </font>[/QUOTE]Adam was sinless, Jesus is the second Adam. When we sin we become separated from God. Jesus never sinned and never was separated from God until the Father forsook Him on the cross at that time Jesus became sin yet He never sinned.

    YAHWEH alone created all things. All the angelic host was there and bore witness and rejoiced. YAHEW says, us, as He included all the angelic host but when He actually created, He did it alone by the power of His word.

    Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited:
    "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
     
  14. KeeperOfMyHome

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    I am just speechless (well, not really, but I'm dumbfounded nonetheless)! How can you even say these things?

    Adam sinless??? Good grief! Have you never read Romans 5:12? If not, allow me to post it here for you:

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Sin entered into this world by ONE man and that man was Adam. This verse also plainly teaches that because of Adam, all are sinners. But I'm sure you have some answer against this teaching as well.

    And you're telling us that we are made in the image of ANGELS? I don't even want to know the reasoning behind this.

    Julia
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

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    Good point, Julia.

    God said "Let Us make Man in Our Image", not "Hey Angels, watch Me make Man in My Image". Since God said "Us" and "Our Image", and angels don't create, "Us" and "Our" can't be referring to the angels.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    IF Jesus in the FORM of a man - means Jesus IS a man... then Jesus in the very FORM of God - means He IS GOD!

    No escaping it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Col 2 - tells us Jesus is the Creator --

    In John 1 - we find that Jesus "as REAL creator" is the basis for the Gospel itself.

    And of course - we ARE to "worship HIM WHO MADE" all these things (Rev 14:6-7)

    game over.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Thanks! You said it all and you said it well. May God bless you!
     

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