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Understanding John 15

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, May 25, 2008.

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  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Steaver, it still sounds like you're putting forward two ways of being 'in Christ', one for Jews and one for Christians. Please clarify you view further.
     
    #21 Matt Black, Jun 6, 2008
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You may understand more clearly if you answer a couple of questions for yourself.

    How would you say one becomes "in Christ"?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #22 steaver, Jun 6, 2008
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    By His grace, through an active and living faith in Him.
     
    #23 Matt Black, Jun 9, 2008
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Regeneration by the Spirit is not needed?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #24 steaver, Jun 9, 2008
  5. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but for me that's implicit in the term 'grace'.
     
    #25 Matt Black, Jun 10, 2008
  6. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    Steaver, I realise there is a strong possibility that I have misunderstood you. Are you saying that throughout this discourse, whenever Jesus says "you", He means "you Israelites" and not "you, my disiples?" If so, what of John 16.2, still part of the same discourse?


    "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."


    ​
    Who would put those to whom He spoke out of synagues? Israelites, surely, who like Paul before his conversion, would think that by doing such things to Christians they were rendering good service to God.
     
    #26 David Lamb, Jun 10, 2008
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It can only be implicit post ressurrection since rebirth by the Holy Ghost was not implemented prior.

    Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    The disciples received the Holy Spirit rebirth after Jesus' ressurrection;

    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #27 steaver, Jun 11, 2008
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I'll get back to you brother. No time left this morning!

    God Bless! :wavey:
     
    #28 steaver, Jun 11, 2008
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you there which is why I disagree with you when you state in the OP that the Johannine passages you quote apply to the Jews....oh, and for the reasons David gave above as well.
     
    #29 Matt Black, Jun 11, 2008
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Don't know where you would see that in my post. Jesus means "you, my disciples" when He says "you" and is speaking of Israel as branches in Christ when He says each "branch" will be cut off which produces no fruit.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #30 steaver, Jun 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2008
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is speaking about Israel as being branches in Christ, the "true vine". Those who produce no fruit are cut off. Those who produce fruit are pruned and cared for.

    You could apply this to all peoples as well if you see mankind as having it's very being "in God" as God's offspring. Paul states it like this;

    Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #31 steaver, Jun 12, 2008
  12. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    You're conflating similar metaphors in two very different passages.
     
    #32 Matt Black, Jun 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2008
  13. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    Thanks Steaver. I think it was this sentence that had me confused:
    Jesus declares that it is He who is the "true vine". It is He who raised Israel up and all that are Israelites are "in Christ".


    ​
    Your words in Post 30 seem to show that you did not mean that all who can trace their physical ancestry to Abraham ("Israel after the flesh") are "in Christ".

    Sorry for misunderstanding!
     
    #33 David Lamb, Jun 12, 2008
  14. KSeeker

    KSeeker New Member

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    I've noticed that many of you have referenced Romans chapter 11 in this discussion. What do you do with Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob? This verse, to me, changes the meaning of the whole "branch metaphor". Also, Paul is addressing Gentiles in Romans. He is using Israel as an example for these Roman Christians.
    Just a few thoughts....Probably more confusing than helpful.
     
    #34 KSeeker, Jun 12, 2008
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You have conflated the "in Me" of John 15 (pre-regeneration) with the "in Christ" of the post ressurrection? I believe my conflating is very probable while the conflating of John 15's "in me" with the post ressurrection regeneration of "in Christ" is simply not expressed in the passage.

    If you apply John 15 to born of God Christians who have produced no fruit or have stopped producing fruit, then #1 you go against scriptures that proclaims no fruit equals no true conversion and #2 you must say that some born of God children will be destroyed in hell. What then is God's purpose for regeneration by the Holy Ghost?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #35 steaver, Jun 12, 2008
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "in Christ" is a post ressurrection doctrine. One becomes NT teaching "in Christ" through regeneration by the Holy Ghost.

    I am saying that Jesus' teaching about the "true vine" and "branches" is not about the "born of God" "in Christ" becoming lost if they do not produce fruit. This teaching would contradict a whole host of scriptures concerning just who it is who is truly a born of God believer, but rather it is about the Israelites being branches of the "true vine" which is Jesus Christ. Israel is refered to as a vine in the OT. Jesus comes and says that it is He who is the true vine and men are the branches "in Him". We know that all of mankind has it's very life sustained in Christ. Not the "in Christ" teaching of regeneration, but rather the "in Him" of existing.

    The disciples were well on their way to receiving the seal of the Holy Ghost at the giving of this doctrine by Jesus. To remain in Him they would need to continue on in believing in Him which, btw, produces fruit. One cannot believe Jesus and produce no fruit. One can SAY they believe Jesus and produce no fruit, but not the former. True belief produces fruit.

    Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #36 steaver, Jun 12, 2008
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Changes the "branch metaphor" from what to what for you?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #37 steaver, Jun 13, 2008
  18. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    You cannot be 'in Christ' without regeneration. Christ's words to His Apostles were prophetic, speaking forward to the time after His death and resurrection, and in particular to when His words in these verses would be related, initially to the Johannine congregations and then, through becoming part of the Scriptures, to all believers. I do indeed apply John 15 to Christians, for the simple reason that one cannot be in Christ without regeneration and one cannot remain in Christ without, as Cranmer would put it, a 'true and lively faith' as opposed to a dead faith without fruit or works (James 2:12-26). You ask why God regenerates? He regenerates to salvation but it is possible for us to reject that and walk away from Him. OSAS is unknown to Scripture or Tradition and is a post-Reformation doctrine of men; the Church during its formative years and beyond did not espouse it.
     
    #38 Matt Black, Jun 13, 2008
  19. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    The way I understand it then is that Salvation starts with belief and is maintained by works?
     
    #39 Thinkingstuff, Jun 13, 2008
  20. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    No. Salvation starts with Christ and His grace, continues with that and finishes with that. Both faith and works are fruits of Him and His grace.
     
    #40 Matt Black, Jun 13, 2008
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