Understanding the value of Jesus' sacrifice

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by eustilou, Dec 27, 2014.

  1. eustilou

    eustilou
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    Hello, I have a few questions about the sacrifice of Jesus:

    What does it mean that God "gave" Jesus? (John 3:16) It appears more like God lent Jesus for 33 years and then He returned to the Father.

    If I buy something precious with a diamond, and the seller smashes the diamond into pieces, then I take those smashed pieces and put them back together restoring the diamond as it was before... and I keep the diamond, what price did I pay for my purchase?

    What is the permanency of Jesus' sacrifice? For God to have "given" something, it must have cost Him something... to lose something He doesn't have anymore.

    What did it cost God to purchase us?

    1 Corinthians 6:20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
    1 Corinthians 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.


    What is the value of suffering for 3 hours on a cross or being dead for 3 days in light of eternity? 3 hours or 3 days of suffering/death is infinitely negligible relative to eternity. Is it not so? What is missing from my understanding?

    Scripture tells us the currency of the transaction happened with blood.

    Acts 20:28 ... shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
    Revelation 5:9 ...You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.


    We also know the blood is precious.

    1 Peter 1:18-19 ... you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ

    It seems like most in the church don't appreciate much the value of the blood. We take the gospel too lightly because we don't properly appreciate the weight of Jesus' sacrifice.
    What value does the shed blood have if Jesus is alive in heaven with the Father?
    What is the permanency of the sacrifice? What was sacrificed? What was lost? What was given up?
    To sacrifice means to give something you will not have anymore.
    If you receive back what you gave, what sacrifice is that?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    The book of Hebrews says that when Abraham was sacrificing his son, Isaac, that he knew that God would bring him back from the dead. This in NO WAY diminished the sacrifice – the fear, the pain, the doubts, the personal cost, or the heartache – that Abraham as already purposed and endured in his heart before the angel stopped him. The sacrifice was not going to take place when the knife ended Isaac's life. The sacrifice had already taken place in Abraham's obedient heart.

    Just because God resurrected His Son does not negate the pain, the personal cost, the haunting questions stemming from a fear we won’t understand (of Jesus in the Garden), the heartache of God, the forsaking of Christ by God, or the profane ugliness of what Jesus endured from the Garden to the cross. What Jesus endured on the cross and what God endured in the turning over of His Son to BECOME SIN for us cannot be fathomed by mortals. Can you imagine what it was like for the spotless Lamb of God to BECOME SIN?

    Can you imagine what that was like for God to watch that?

    Yes, Jesus knew He would be resurrected. God knew it. They both knew it “from the foundation of the world”.

    The sacrifice isn’t in the permanency of death. It wasn’t in the permanency of death of the animals in the Old Testament. Yes, they remained dead, but they have no soul TO resurrect. The sacrifice was in the submission to God by the one sacrificing.

    Jesus, in the Garden, sweating drops of blood signifying that He was near death already from stress – Jesus submitted ALL to the will of God.

    Our lives are to be a daily sacrifice to God. That doesn’t mean we literally die every day or even have a terrible or painful experience. We KNOW the end of the story and that we will be in heaven with God and Jesus. Yet sacrifices are none-the-less sometimes hard to bear on this earth.

    The sacrifice isn’t in the permanency of the pain, cost, heartache, or loss. It’s voluntary surrendering to the pain and the cost and it’s in the heart of the one who submits whatever has been called for him or her TO submit to God. Jesus "sacrificed" Peter in a sense when He told Peter that Satan had asked permission to "sift" him as wheat.

    Peter went through a spiritual nightmare and was driven to tears over the pain in his spirit. But Jesus also told Peter that it would not be permanent and that when it was over, Peter would lead the brothers.
     
    #2 Scarlett O., Dec 27, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  3. JamesL

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    Eustilou,

    There are several places in Scripture to look and find various types fulfilled in Christ.

    You also seem to have a misunderstanding of what it means to give.

    If you read Genesis 22:1-13 there is a tupe found in Isaac. Abraham was about to "offer" or "give" his only son. Reference that to Hebrews 11:17-19, and you'll see that Abraham had faith that if he indeed carried it to fullness that he would receive Isaac back from the dead.

    So the giving wasn't a permanent loss

    As for the blood, read Leviticus 16, then compare that to Hebrews 6:13-10:40. Read about the blood of bulls and goats on the Day of Atonement, and the significance of the blood. In Hebrews 9:6-16 we see that Jesus entered the Holiest by His own blood - not that of bulls and goats.

    Keep reading and you'll see some things which should hopefull open your eyes. 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Remission means "sending off" which should remind you of the scapegoat from Lev 16.

    10:1 says the yearly sacrifices could never make the comers perfect. Verse 4 says the blood of bulls and goats could never remove sins.

    The obvious implication is that the bloid of Christ DOES remove sins. Think of that in light of verse 14, which says that He has forever perfected those who are sanctified. And verse 18 says where there is a sending off of sins, there is no more offering for sin

    That's why we are able to approach God with boldness.

    Consider Hebrews 8:8-12 in light of the prophecies about the New Covenant, found in Jeremiah 31:31-34 & 38:31-34. Also rference that to Ezekiel 36:26

    Compare Hebrews 10:5-9 with Psalm 39:6-8

    God would give us a new heart and new spiritby whuch we would obey Him.

    How does thaa work? The nlood of Jesus cleanses us from sin, forever perfecting us. This is not a subjective behavioral thing, this is a literal washing of our spirit. Paul called it the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)

    This is not a change in demeanor or disposition, this is a real cleansing of our inner man. A healing of our degenerate inner man. By His stripes we have been healed. Not that we are being healed, or will be healed

    Sins removed, not covered. The permanence is in the one sacrifice, once for all. Forever perfected.

    We are sealed with the Spirit unto the day of redemption. We still have this disease called sin, but in our phtsixal bidy. It will get weak, sick, tired, and eventually will die. But in the resurrection, our body will be cleansed - just as our spirit is now

    God gave His Son as an offering for sin. And when it was finished, God received His Son back from the dead
     
    #3 JamesL, Dec 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2014
  4. eustilou

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    I consider myself to be emotionally retarded... or underdeveloped.
    Meaning, I don't feel much... I'm very shut down emotionally... not really capable of empathy. That's how I coped growing up with parents who fought a lot.

    As I read the above paragraph, I became aware that I don't have the capacity to imagine relationship... to imagine the fellowship, intimacy and warmth between Jesus and the Father... to grasp its intensity and to understand what separation would have meant, even if it was only for 3 days.

    Just becoming aware of my incapacity increased my appreciation for His sacrifice.

    Thanks so much.
     
  5. eustilou

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    Thanks for taking the time.
    I guess I've got some homework to do. I can't wait to find a chunk of time and meditate on the passages you mentioned.
     
  6. JamesL

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    You're welcome.

    And I apologize for all the typos in my post. Good grief, it's hard for me to type on a tablet.
     
  7. eustilou

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    I think I got it. How does the following sound?

    The trinity changed after Jesus was born.
    Before, it was Father, Word and Holy Spirit. After Christ was given, it became Father, Word in human (resurrected/glorified) body and Holy Spirit.
    Humanity is part of the trinity now... allowing us to be partakers of God's divine nature through Christ.
    The Word becoming flesh created a human interface to the trinity: Christ... the door... through which we can be hidden in God through Christ.
    I'm wondering whether the interaction dynamic between the Father and the Son changed forever due to the Word being human and having a human body now.
    I'm wondering whether Christ having a body diminishes or changes in any way how the Father relates to or interacts with the Son.

    For example, a father and son discover a colony of ants that is about to get wiped out by an incoming wave. They need to be told quickly to move to higher ground, but the only way to communicate that is for the son to become one of the ants. Because the father loves the ants so much, the son becomes an ant and some of the ants listen to the son's message and move to higher ground before the wave hits. Now, the son ascends back to the father, but remains in the form of an ant... forever changing the interaction dynamic between the father and the son. The son is still of human nature with all its reasoning capacity and still has all power and authority of a human, but will remain an ant forever.

    Could this be what God "lost" or gave up in order to save us?

    Do my thoughts have any merit, or am I totally off base?

    I don't want to minimize the suffering, shed blood and death of Christ. Those had their costs also.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I don't think the nature of God (Trinity) changed at all. The Scripture simply says that the Word "took upon" the human nature not that the human nature became divine or unhuman. The humanity of Christ remained human and never became God nor did Divine nature become human nature. They remain eternal distinct from each other in the one Person of Jesus Christ.

    So the Trinity never changed. God the Son simply "took upon" himself a human nature that remains a human nature. This is called by theologians the hypostatic union of the Divine and human nature in one person without confusing or mixing either.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Jesus is perfect humanity and Eternal God co existing for all eternity now, and what it cost the father was that he had to turn away from His only begotten Son, and have him endure upon the cross exactly same as all lost sinners will in the end...
     
  10. eustilou

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    Scratch that...
    Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever (Heb. 13:5)
    In the Father there is no variation or shifting shadw (Jam. 1:17)
     
  11. eustilou

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    But the Son had a happy ending and lost sinners will have a terrible one.

    I'm having a hard time grasping the value of past suffering when there will be bliss for all eternity.
     
  12. kyredneck

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    :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
  13. kyredneck

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    Ivory Palaces

    My Lord has garments so wondrous fine,
    And myrrh their texture fills;
    Its fragrance reached to this heart of mine
    With joy my being thrills.

    Out of the ivory palaces,
    Into a world of woe,
    Only His great eternal love
    Made my Savior go.


    His life had also its sorrows sore,
    For aloes had a part;
    And when I think of the cross He bore,
    My eyes with teardrops start.

    Out of the ivory palaces,
    Into a world of woe,
    Only His great eternal love
    Made my Savior go.


    His garments too were in cassia dipped,
    With healing in a touch;
    Each time my feet in some sin have slipped,
    He took me from its clutch.

    Out of the ivory palaces,
    Into a world of woe,
    Only His great eternal love
    Made my Savior go.


    In garments glorious He will come,
    To open wide the door;
    And I shall enter my heav’nly home,
    To dwell forevermore.

    Out of the ivory palaces,
    Into a world of woe,
    Only His great eternal love
    Made my Savior go.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    He took on the wrath of God for all sinners ,eant to get saved by His death, so he had to endure eternity of seperation from the father while on the cross, and that is something we can never really understand!
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    John 3:16 says God gave His Son so that whoever (you, me, anyone) who believes into Christ will not perish but have eternal life. So the gift was to provide a means of salvation available to anyone who believes into Him. In order to get transferred into Him, God, who knows our hearts, must credit our faith as righteousness. If He does, then God transfers us spiritually into Christ. So the gift, the means of salvation, will last till the end of age and the last human is saved by His blood.

    Jesus paid the price required, living a sinless life, then suffering and dying on the cross. What did that price buy? Two things, first like an oil lease, it bought all mankind, giving God the right to save anyone who believes in Him. Second, for those who God transfers into Christ, His precious blood removes our sin burden, thus we are made holy and blameless, with our past, present and future sins forgiven.

    Jesus sacrificed His life in the flesh, now He has a resurrected body.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    His death is something we will never fully understand, as the Creator allowed his creation to slay him!
     
  17. eustilou

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    Ah, so now I feel like we're getting somewhere.

    So, from our perspective in time, it was only a few moments of separation from the Father, but Jesus experienced ETERNAL separation. Whoa...

    I think this is worth mediating on.
    Anyone else have thoughts about Christ experiencing eternal separation from the Father?

    I agree that we can't fully understand it, but I believe we can gain more understanding than we already have.

    Seems like our confinement to the dimension of time limits us significantly to more fully value and appreciate the work of Christ.
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    No verse or passage supports the speculation that Jesus spent an eternity separated from God. Speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

    Clearly we will know more when we no longer look as if through a glass darkly, but God's Word presents us with a vast amount of information we can gleam with study, prayer, and the support of other Christians.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    On the Cross, Jesus experience the exactness of eternal seperation as all lost sinners will though, and that is the Cup that he did not want to partake of!
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Sadly the Incarnation and its cost is rarely mentioned within the Church except at Christmas. Many people who call themselves Christians frequently, perhaps more often than not, trivialize what actually occurred some 2000 years ago when the Christ Child was born to the Virgin Mary in a stable in the Judean town of Bethlehem. It is true that we celebrate that birth at Christmas and we may, amid the feasting and gift exchange, take a moment to reflect, even marvel, about the birth of the Christ Child. Yet do we comprehend in any way what the incarnation cost God. God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, for a time laid aside His Glory, but His Deity, His Holiness, He could not lay aside and yet for some 33 years He lived as a man among sinful man and then He went to the Cross..

    We would do well to look beyond the “manger”and consider:

    No Grace, No Incarnation;
    No Incarnation, No Cross;
    No Cross, No Resurrection;
    No Resurrection, No Hope.



    There is another hymn that expresses what the Incarnation cost. William Walker in the song “Wondrous Love” [composed in 1835] marvels at the love of God as demonstrated by the incarnation as follows:

    What wondrous love is this, O my soul, O my soul!
    What wondrous love is this, O my soul!
    What wondrous love is this that caused the Lord of bliss
    To bear the dreadful curse for my soul, for my soul,
    To bear the dreadful curse for my soul.

    When I was sinking down, sinking down, sinking down,
    When I was sinking down, sinking down,
    When I was sinking down beneath God’s righteous frown,
    Christ laid aside His crown for my soul, for my soul,
    Christ laid aside His crown for my soul.


    Lest someone mistakenly think I am saying the divine nature of Jesus Christ died on the Cross be assured I am not. God cannot Die!
     

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