Understanding the Walk of a Believer

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    The following was a comment and response on this issue on another thread. I was asked to start a new thread concerning this issue. As always, everyone is certainly free and encouraged to join in!




    HP: Well, on one hand you preach real good, but on the other hand, I know you DHK. We have walked together for quite some time now. Lets' test your preaching.

    So, the life of the believer is characterized by those who show the fruit of the Spirit and NOT the works of the flesh. Why am I having such a hard time believing you really believe that? Lets take this a step further. So, one sinning every day in thought word and deed would not characterize a believer, right?
     
  2. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just saw this new thread to continue the discussion with Heavenly Pilgrim and DHK, so I moved my question to DHK here.

    Question to DHK:

    You have stated in another thread that you and all Christians often walk after the flesh, that it is always a struggle not to, and a struggle that all Christians often fail. You also stated that this is normal for a Christian, and nothing else is accepted. Therefore, with your reasoning, do you not see how one can be in danger of not qualifying for "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1.
     
    #2 Moriah, Feb 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    I believe that Romans 8:1 is simply the continuation of Romans 7:23-25. When the child of God "walks after the flesh" they experience the "wretched" condition described in Romans 7:14-25. They are delivered from this wretched condition when they "walk after the Spirit." I do not believe Paul is talking about justification here but about sanctiification and especially the deliverance previously referred to in Romans 7:23-24which is further described in Romans 8:12-13.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Feb 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2012
  4. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    First read my explanation here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1803899&postcount=194
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    I read your post. However, I think the scriptures you first used in that post better support my interpretation of Romans 8:1 as simply the continuation of Romans 7:14-25 and especially the dichotomy stated in Romans 7:25.

    The "condemnation" refers to experiential condemnation expressed in Romans 7:24 which is removed experientially when we "walk" after the Spirit instead of walking after the flesh as illustrated in Romans 7:14-22.

    Hence, "condemnation" does not refer to the consequence of justification by faith but sanctification by faith or our "walk." Romans 8:2 refers back to the law of sin and death in Romans 7:23-25 which a child of God is made free from that struggle described in Romans 7:14-22 through the indwelling Spirit of God - thus "walking after the Spirit" frees them from that experiential "condemnation" that arises when we "walk after the flesh." Romans 8:3 refers to Romans 6:11-13 and identifying by faith with the death of Christ to sin by counting it so by faith and yeilding to the Spirit = "walking after the Spirit."
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Feb 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2012
  6. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why so many here want to go against people who preach obedience to Christ is just unbelievable.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    Your "personal" opinions are worthless without scriptures to back them up. I thought you are the one who loudly shouts "I LOVE GOD'S WORD" but you rarely use it to support what you say.
     
  8. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    2 seperate aspects to the walk of a Christian!
    One is freely justified by God , based upon the finished work to atone us by Christ upon the Cross, and that is a one time forever done by God towards us!

    Once saved by grace of God, than we start lifelong walk of sauntificastion in our lives...

    saints can still sin after salvation, its just that we will have now the new nature and HS in us to convict us to repent and confess back to god in order to be restored!
     
  9. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    I use scripture, but you deny them.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    Well, I hope that makes you feel better about yourself.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: Here we are trying to focus on a simple straight forward verse in Romans 8:1 and Biblicist takes us on a tour of Romans and injects notions not in the text in the least to prove what? Sanctification is not the topic nor is it being addressed by the context.

    How are we to appreciate your responses when you hold everyone else's feet to the fire concerning the 'text itself' when looking at John 6 and chastise any and all that would look elsewhere for supportive evidence, and the first thing you do with this text is to inject notions not in the text nor established by any context as well as immediately start pointing to other verses?

    How about showing a little consistency and try on a dose or two of your own medicine as we approach this text in Scripture? Show us from the text itself where sanctification is the context. We can look at the other verses you point to in due time. :thumbs:
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0



    HP: What, in the text of Romans 8:1, sets forth two aspects of the walk of a Christian?
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    The term "walk" refers to your practical daily living and your practical daily living for a child of God refers to progressive sanctification. In contrast the term "justified" is a past tense verb that refers to initial salvation as demonstrated by Paul in Romans 4:5-11 where the initial justification of Abraham is demonstrated to have occurred prior to circumcision (Rom. 4:11).

    Just because there is a chapter division between Romans 7:25 and Romans 8:1 does not mean Paul's train of thought has changed.

    In Romans 7:23-25 he has introduced the reader to a "wretched" dichotomy where there are two laws at work within the believer who has the will to do good but has no power to enforce his will but is overcome by the power of the law of sin at work in his members (Rom. 7:18). Verse 25 leaves Paul in this dichotomy where his mind serves the Law of God while his flesh serves the law of sin. His cry in Romans 7:24 is deliverance and his thankful declaration is that Christ will deliver him.

    Romans 8:1 identifies where that deliverance by Christ exists concerning his "WALK". Romans 7:14-25 has been an ineffectual attempt to do "good" due to a lack of power (Rom. 7:18). Romans 8:1 identifies where the power to "WALK" in victory over indwelling sin by means of the indwelling Spirit of God.

    In Romans 8:2 Paul introduces a third law in the life of the believer. There is the law of sin dominating the law of God after the inward man in the Christian in regard to his walk. There is a third law that is found exclusively in the Holy Spirit which empowers the "LIFE" of Christ in the walk of the believer and thereby triumps over the law of sin and death that dominates the the law of God after the inward man when the Christian opposes the law of sin and death in his own will power (v. 18). It is the law of the Spirit that produces the "life" of Christ in the "WALK" of the believer and gives deliverance from the "wretched" conflict with indwelling sin.

    Romans 7:1-7 identifies our freedom from the Law in the death of Christ that brings us into spiritual union with the LIFE of Christ which produces fruits of obedience in our daily walk.

    Romans 7:8-13 repudiates the idea that the law produce these fruits in the life of the lost.

    Romans 7:14-25 repudiates the idea that the law can produce these fruits in the life of the saved.

    Romans 8:1-27 teaches that both our justification is obtained by the death of Christ and our sanctification by the life of Christ through the Spirit of God.

    I have given more of an exposition of the immediate context than either you or Micheal ever gave for John 6:39.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Feb 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2012
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


    Verse 2 simply makes the declaration while verses 3-4 provide the explanation.

    Verse 3 declares what the law could not do. That has been expounded in detail in Romans 7:7-25. It could not justifiy us (Rom. 7:7-13) and it cannot sanctify us (Rom. 7:14-25). It has no power to do either. Its weakness is due to our flesh. The problem is our fallen nature not the law (Rom. 7:12). The unregenerate man is wholly "flesh" while the regenerated man is still not without the "flesh". So the Law cannot justfy the lost man or sanctify the saved man.

    However, what the Law could not do, Christ did by his death and does by his resurrected life. By his death the right of sin was condemned in the death of Christ's body as the laws full condemnation against sin was completely satisfied by His death - for the wages of sin is death.

    Verse 4 - By his resurrected life comes the power to deliver the Christian from indwelling sin as it is accessed when and only when the child of God "walks after the Spirit" and not "after the flesh."

    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.



    Verses 5-7 deals with the "mind" as the distinguishing feature between two classes of human beings. Those born after the flesh do "mind" the things of the flesh but those born after the Spirit "mind" the things of the Spirit.

    Gal. 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    The man in Romans 7:14-25 is one who "minds" the things of the Spirit as "with the mind he serves the Law of God."

    Verses 8-9 deal with the mindset of the lost man who is "in" the flesh. So Paul comes from the "walk" of a child of God (Rom. 8:1-4) to the "mind" of a lost person versus a saved person to lost "in" the flesh versus the saved "in" the Spirit. The saved person can "walk" according to both as he has both the flesh and the Spirit of God (Rom. 7:14-23). However, the saved person serves the law of God "with the mind" (Rom. 7:25) and does "mind" the things of the Spirit while the lost man does "mind" the things of the flesh. The reason for this "mind" distinction is because the lost man is "in" the flesh but the saved person is "in" the Spirit.
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


    In verse 11 the life of Christ through the indwelling Spirit of God will quicken your "mortal bodies"! Remember in Romans 7:24 Paul cries for deliverance from "this BODY of death" meaning from it dominance over him through indwelling sin. Romans 7:14-25 considers the Christian trying to live the Christian life by his own will power (Rom. 7:18b) which only meets defeat.

    In verse 11 Paul is not talking about the FUTURE resurrection of the body from the grave but he is talking about the present quickening or making alive the body by the indwelling Spirit making it alive for the use of God instead of a tool for the use of indwelling sin (Rom. 7:25 "and with the flesh the law of sin") and this is explained in verses 12-13 in regard to our CURRENT SERVICE to God.

    Verse 12 - because of the indwelling Spirit right now in us that can quicken our mortal bodies, making our bodies alive to God and free from the service of sin (Rom. 7:25) we are therefore no longer "debtors to the flesh to live after the flesh" RIGHT NOW - not in some future resurrection. The phrase "live after the flesh" is equal to "walk after the flesh" in verses 1 and 4. Progressive sanctification is in view or our daily "walk" right now.

    Verse 13 - Note the present tenses "if ye live after the flesh" and "do mortify the deeds of the body"! These are the present options every Christian faces every day. They can "live" OR walk after the flesh by failing to "mortify the deeds of the body" through the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. What happens when they fail to "mortify" put to death "the deeds of the body"? They "shall die" but what happens if they put to death the deeds of the body through the power of the Holy Spirit? They "shall live." He is not talking about some post-resurrection events but daily consequential events to right now to one or the other of these daily choices - either walking after the flesh or mortifying the deeds of the body. You will either EXPERIENCE RIGHT NOW life or death. In Romans 7:25 he experienced death "this body of death." He was physically alive in Romans 7:24 but he was EXPERIENCING "this body OF DEATH." Even so in verse 13 we are still physically alive but have a choice either to EXPERIENCE death by attempting to serve God by our own will power or we can EXPERIENCE life by mortifying the deeds of the body THROUGH THE POWER OF THE INDWELLING SPIRIT. This is an every day choice with every day consequences.

    You EXPERIENCE life through the Holy Spirit quickening your body to the service of Christ rather than to the service of sin. You EXPERIENCE death - SEPARATION from the power of the indwelling Spirit as described in Romans 7:14-5 - or "this body of DEATH" (Rom. 7:24) whenever you fail to "mortify the deeds of the body." It is through the power of the Spirit that you "moritfy THE DEEDS of the Body" and thus the Spirit "quickens THE BODY" for use in the service with God so that you serve God not only "with my mind" (Rom. 7:25) but with the flesh as well. Whereas, in Romans 7:25 when attempting to serve God by his own will power only with his mind did he serve God but "with the flesh the law of sin."
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Feb 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2012
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


    Verse 14 - The Child of God will experience Romans 7:14-25 as that is a very necessary experience but the Holy Spirit will lead him from that negative experience to the positive experience. Spiritual growth and maturity is learning, as a spiritual babe, to depend more on the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life than to depend on your own power - increased dependency is the measure of spiritual growth. Such leadership is an essential characteristic of every child of God. The progression in such growth varies from one child to another depending on the measure of grace and faith given them in keeping with God's purpose for each (Rom. 12:3,7; Eph. 2:10b).

    Verse 15 - The Spirit dwells in every child of God and through their adversities (Rom. 7:14-25) leads them to cry out to God for help and thus leads them to cast themselves upon the Spirit of God for deliverance.

    Verse 16 - There is an internal witness by the Spirit of God with our renewed and regenerated spirit that confirms and assures us that we are the children of God and this transition from dependency on the flesh to deliverance by the Spirit is part of that confirmation/assurance witness. God does not leave us crying out "Who shall deliver me from this body of death" but uses it to bring us to the point of giving up on self-power and casting ourselves upon His power.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
    17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


    Verse 17 - This continuing progressive transition process of spiritual growth from the negative to positive experience or the internal spiritual war we struggle every day with is part of being a child of God. However, "if children" then we are also heirs of God and this struggle will soon be over and we shall enter into our inheritance. However, this warefare with sin is part of our suffering "with him." Christ on the cross suffered in regard to sin and this inward struggle with sin is part of our identity "with him." Those who do not struggle with sin are not His children and therefore will not be glorified with Him. He fought sin and all his children by their very new creation and indwelling Spirit of Christ struggle and fight sin.

    Verse 18 - These struggles with sin in "this present time" whereby we "suffer" in this internal warfare is not in vain. The struggle against sin does not merely demonstrate we will be glorified but according to the measure of success in our struggles - our maturity - there will be various degrees of glory "revealed in us." Paul talks about this to the Corinthians where we will vary as one star varies from another in glory - brightness (1 Cor. 15).

    In the Jewish family all the children were joint-heirs together of their Father's inheritance. However, one was chosen to be the "first-born" heir which received double the inheritance given to all the other children. All children of God overcome this world through faith in Christ but not all overcome in the same degree of faithfulness to Christ. There are those who are the "firstborn" among their brethren. Christ was the firstborn from the dead, but their is the congregation of the firstborn ones (Heb. 12:22) whose names are written in the New Jerusalem in heaven and whose names can be erased due to a failure to overcome in faithfulness to Christ. All of God's children are "joint-heirs" with Christ but not all are "first-born" heirs. The former has to do with your new birth while the second has to do with service.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,189
    Likes Received:
    207
     

Share This Page

Loading...