Unlimited Atonement

Thank you for that labor. There's any number of us who could have should have followed up on the validity of this yet another of Winman's relentless baseless FALSE accusations against Calvinists.

 

that's called loving the "brethren", bro.

(edited by PB to focus on the sentence).....

 

Thanks, but it didn't involve much labour (or even labor!!) I just clicked on Luke's name, then "Show all statistics", then "Show all threads started by Luke2427".

 

Maybe Winman wouldn't spout out these falsehoods so much if he knows he's gonna get checked up on.

 

In this instance, I would give Winman the benefit of the doubt, for although that thread wasn't started by Luke, it was based on a quote from one of Luke's postings. Maybe that stuck in Winman's mind, and caused him mistenly to think that Luke had actually started the thread.

 

Heheh, OK, in this instance.

 

David....is that your real last name mate?

Considering your gentlemanly demeanor, I will give you the benefit of the doubt as to your judgment of people. Some other advice, never go into NYC & if you do stay out of Times Square.

 

Baaa-baa-baaaaaaa! (Which, being interpreted, means, "Yes it is!)

I have been to NYC, but many years ago, with the youth orchestra I was in. At 6 feet 6 inches tall, I'm not lamb-like in stature!

 

Yeah, just blindly take David's word without looking yourself. He either didn't look that hard or has selective reading. Maybe before falsely accusing someone you should do your own homework.

 

Oh O, could it be a smear campaign? Heaven's NO, not among our loving Christian brethrenraying: and lodged against one thats a ordained Baptist pastor! As the apostle so appropriately stated, "God Forbid"!

 

But, "because you didn't elect me" isn't a reason a person goes to hell. Election is elected for salvation. The rest are left just as they are.

 

Yes, I was mistaken, and I apologize. I would never intentionally misrepresent anyone. I don't need to do that.

This all started with a comment I made that several Cals/DoGs commonly make posts suggesting that those who hold Reformed views are more intelligent/learned/spiritual than others. When I was asked about this, I responded that Luke had recently made such a post. I was mistaken, the post was made by another, but was based on a quote by Luke. That is where I made my mistake.

This is not a baseless accusation however, it is the truth. At this present time there is a thread where I was said to be profoundly ignorant. Another suggests I am a liar. This is common.

I personally don't care about these insults. It just proves to me that you cannot answer my arguments, so you attack me personally.

 

How is that not the reason if election is FOR salvation? The fact they weren't elected is the reason they are going to hell.

 

Yes, this is my biggest objection to Reformed belief. It makes the work of Christ on the cross secondary to election. Yes, you need Christ's sacrifice to pay for your sins, but unless you are first elected it is meaningless.

In the non-Cal view election follows Christ's sacrifice, as we are not elect until we believe on Jesus. Yes, we were elected before the foundation of the world, but this is according to God's foreknowledge who could see who would believe on Christ's sacrifice.

Reformed theology has election "outside of Christ". You are chosen and then given to Christ. In non-Reformed theology we are elected "in Christ". Huge difference.

 

The fact that I don't pay your electric bill isn't why you have to pay your electric bill every month. Hell is a place of punishment for our sin. We all deserve to go there. Anybody that goes to hell does so because of their sin.

 

No, we are elected in Christ. Reformed theology doesn't place election "outside of Christ" as you put it. We are elected in Christ as Ephesians 1:4 says.

and the bolded part is a contradiction. either you have been elected or you have not been elected. If God chose you before the foundation of the world(regardless of conditional or unconditional) then you were elect or not elect. You and I are both Christians, so we were both elect. We were always elect. Whether God elected based on your decision or not doesn't change when you became elect.

 

Your analogy doesn't make sense. John 3:18 states hell is where unbelievers go. If we pay for our sin in Hell, God is left eternally unpaid for offenses committed against Him. I do not believe God will go eternity being unpaid for crimes committed.

 

My analogy makes sense. There are primary and secondary reasons for things. The primary reason for hell is because of sin. The primary reason of your electric bill is because your received electricity. A secondary reason for going to hell is rejection of Jesus Christ. A secondary reason for you paying your bill is because somebody else didn't pay for it.

And you are condemned because you are a sinner. Those that don't believe are condemned already (because they sinned.) The wages of sin is death. Eternal death in hell. That's why we needed a Savior. Jesus dying on the cross was to pay the penalty of all those that believe in him. Jesus dying on the cross was to save sinners from paying the penalty of their sin. Without Jesus, we all would have to pay the penalty of sin.

 

Well, I could show you quotes by Calvin himself, and other authors like John MacArthur that says otherwise. You Cals say I misrepresent you, I do not. I spend more time reading reformed authors and none reading non-reformed because I want to understand the position. What I am saying is true.

Edit - Here are some statements from John MacArthur on election

As you see, MacArthur denies that a person is elected or chosen because of foreseen faith. But we know that election is according to foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2). Even a Calvinist must admit that God saw something in the future that determined who he elected. You can deny that is is faith, but it must be something.

As you can see here, MacArthur says you are chosen or elected outside of Jesus and then given to Jesus as a gift. If you were chosen "in Christ" this could not be so.

And this is the problem, saying that God chooses someone outside Christ implies some sort of merit in the elect. He had to have some reason to choose certain man, for God is never without reason. And the scriptures clearly say we are elect according to foreknowledge, so there must be something about the man God knows that determines who he will elect and give to Jesus.

The non-Cal view is very different. We see Jesus alone as being God's "Elect". Jesus is the chosen one. However, when we believe on him we are joined into his Body. We are one with him. Now we are elect because we are a member of his body, not because of any merit of our own. Do you see the difference? It is a HUGE difference.

Source

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW02.htm

 

Could you share with me a MacArthur quote that says we are elected outside of Christ?

That is a good idea to read from people that believe it than that don't.