Untranslated words

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by franklinmonroe, Feb 5, 2008.

  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
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    Perhaps, it may surprise some individuals to become aquainted with the fact that some ancient language words are not translated into English Bible texts. For example, the Hebrew word 'Amown (Strong's #528) occurs in the Jewish scriptures twice (in Jeremiah 46:25 and Nahum 3:8), but is left completely untranslated in the KJV. There are many instances of unrendered Hebrew words in the KJV Old Testament.

    Here also is one example from the New Testament: the Greek word Kaisar (Strong's #2541, translated 30 times in the KJV as "Caesar") is present in the TR Greek but was restricted from coming into the AV text (in 2 Timothy 4:22).

    These were considered God's words when read and then copied into those previous holy scriptures (manuscripts which we now possess). How does the fact that some words go untranslated affect the 'literalness' of a version? How does this relate to the taking away from, or changing of, God's words?
     
    #1 franklinmonroe, Feb 5, 2008
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  2. Ed Edwards

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    That be the way things be. :godisgood:



    Sure blows the socks of any theory that there is one and only one set of words in English which inerrantly mean what the original language words meant.
     
  3. cowboymatt

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    In the OT the word et (aleph tav) is never translated and it appears many, many, many times. Some people claim it points to Jesus, but this is simply pushing the evidence way too much.

    No two languages are perfectly compatible with each other.
     
  4. TCGreek

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    This is very instructive for versions that claim to be word-for-word. There's no such either.
     
  5. tinytim

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    Where is it located in 2 Tim 4:22 in the greek.. after what word?
    I am having trouble finding it in the Greek.
     
  6. franklinmonroe

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    Be sure you are looking at a version of Stephens, Beza, or Elzevir's Textus Receptus, as the latter portion of the verse (bracketed by the TR and in some KJVs) is not found in other Greek texts (which end after the word "Amen"). In the TR Greek, Neron ("Nero") is positioned as the last word and Kaisar immediately preceeds it. The specific answer your question is that it comes after a Greek definite article (which is also left out of the KJV); but the previous word to that is Paulos. Here is 2 Timothy 4:22 from the KJV (from blueletterbible.org) --
    The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. [The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.]​

    I have found many online 'KJV' texts that omit the bracketed sentence; but it is in the original 1611 text, set as a paragraph by itself. It is not a footnote; it is typeset as part of the main text. So, why is it bracketed in others?
     
    #6 franklinmonroe, Feb 6, 2008
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  7. robycop3

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    That's why I am more concerned with the MESSAGES than the actual words...the incompatibility of the languages. GOD made all languages, and he chose only certain ones in which to first present His word, knowing full well they wouldn't translate with absolute smoothness into later languages. Thus, I believe God is more concerned with preserving the MESSAGES fully, while keeping the actual wording in line only as far as language differences allow. After all, the same MESSAGES can be conveyed into virtually every language.
     
  8. just-want-peace

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    {sarcasm on} WOW!!!! You are bordering on heresy; {sarcasm off}

    Seriously, this raises a real stickler for some in their translational beliefs!
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Robycop3 -- Preach it! :thumbs:


    "Word of God" = message from God to human
    "Words of God" = message from God to human

    Magic (from dictionary.com ):
    #2: the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

    In other you speak it & claim it from 'supernatural agencies &/or forcees of nature

    This is the opposite of Magic:
    "Word of God" = message from God to human
    "Words of God" = message from God to human

    When you focus on words - you are nearing 'magic'.
    (Forbidden by God: 'Wizard" = male who practices magic, 'Witch' = female who practices magic, etc.)

    When you focus on God's Message (AKA: Good News" or 'Gospel') - you are nearing 'Truth': Messiah Jesus.
     
  10. sag38

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    Where is the onlyism crowd? Honestly, I'd like to see an answer.
     
  11. sag38

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    Well???!!!
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    I looked up II Tim 4 in the Stephanos (1555 revision of Erasmus) and the text was there but totally untranslated in the AV. So I checked I Tim and again, the final verse is untranslated.

    The AV (not alone among translations) simply uses a small phrase of the final paragraph as a "title" and ignores the rest.

    How odd is it that I had not noticed such a continued omission from the end of the preserved Greek text in every letter!!
     
  13. franklinmonroe

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    See http://www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-47257.html for an extensive look into this issue. I recommend using "View Full Version" since the formatting is quite helpful.
     
    #13 franklinmonroe, Jul 25, 2008
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  14. Ehud

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    Jesus must be like a witch?

    So those who believe God preserved his Word are like witches?
    Hum Let's see if your opinion lines up with scripture
    Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

    Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
    Psalms 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
    Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
    Psalms 119:43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
    Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
    Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Not Message!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Jesus must be like a witch


    Word used 675 times
    Message used 7 times

    I guess the the Bible is a magic book, and the psalmist are like witches. And what about Jesus
    WOW! we are getting sillier all the time. what magical nonsense.

    Let's get back to being Biblical and scriptural.

    EHUD. Dr. of Truth
    Matthew 4:4 A.V> 1611 But he answered, and said, It is written, Man shall not liue by bread alone, but by euery word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Ed Edwards: //When you focus on words - you are nearing 'magic'.
    (Forbidden by God: 'Wizard" = male who practices magic, 'Witch' = female who practices

    magic, etc.)//

    Ehud: //So those who believe God preserved his Word are like witches?//

    You jumped to a non-biblical, un-christian conclusion.

    Ehud: //Word used 675 times
    Message used 7 times//

    Again, I said and I beleive and you seem to have ignored:

    The Written of God = The Written Words of God = the written message of God

    Ehud: //I guess the the Bible is a magic book, and the psalmist are like witches. And what

    about Jesus
    WOW! we are getting sillier all the time. what magical nonsense.//

    You jumped to a non-biblical, un-christian conclusion.

    The Bible CANNOT contradict itself either within one Version nor among the Versions.

    Contradictions are made by man.

    Ehud: //Let's get back to being Biblical and scriptural.//

    I agree. Let us start with you.
    ---------------------------
    The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism:

    1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
    2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
    3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
    4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
    5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

    Note the first one is about the Written Word of God,
    the Holy Bible (AKA: Holy Scripture).
    Note that #2 to #5 (the last four) are about
    the Living Word of God, Messiah Jesus.
    Notice that a person (even if He is a spiritual person)
    is NOT the same as a Book (even if it is the
    best book in the world).

    To equate the Written Word of God and the Living
    Word of God is a step away from the Fundamentals
    of Christianity. To equate the Written Word of God
    and the Living Word of God is a step toward
    a NEW AGE belief.

    The next step toward the NEW AGE belief concerning
    the Holy Scripture is to use the Divine Bible
    (third person of the Holy Trinity) as a divination device
    and a fortune telling tool: i.e. using
    some Bible Code on the King James Version 1769
    Edition ONLY.

    The Bible Codes are a direct violation of the ETERNAL
    LAW OF GOD as shown in Deuternomoty 18:10-12
    (note that for clarity I use, as my signature suggests, more than one translation)

    Sources
    Deuter 18:10-12 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition)
    Deuter 18:10-12 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Deuter 18:10-12 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ )

    Geneva 10A. or that vseth witchcraft,
    KJV1611 10A. or that vseth diuination,
    HCSB 10A. practice divination,

    Geneva 10B. or a regarder of times,
    KJV1611 10B. or an obseruer of times,
    HCSB 10B. tell fortunes,

    Geneva 10C. or a marker of the flying of foules,
    KJV1611 10C. or an inchanter,
    HCSB 10C. interpret omens,

    Geneva 10D. or a sorcerer,
    KJV1611 10D. or a witch,
    HCSB 10D. practice sorcery,

    Geneva 11A. Or a charmer,
    KJV1611 11A. Or a charmer,
    HCSB 11A. cast spells,

    Geneva 11B. or that counselleth with spirits,
    KJV1611 11B. or a consulter with familiar spirits,
    HCSB 11B. or (consult) a familiar spirit,

    Geneva 11C. or a soothsaier,
    KJV1611 11C. or a wyzard,
    HCSB 11C. consult a medium

    Geneva 11D. or that asketh counsel at ye dead.
    KJV1611 11D. or a Necromancer.
    HCSB 11D. or inquire of the dead.
    ---------------------------

    What is Deut 18:10-12 speaking of? What offence do these things make before God?

    IMHO they are attempts to deal with the Forces of the Universe and GO AROUND God

    trying to IGNORE God.
    ---------------------------

    in Dictionary.com this is the definition of SORCERY:
    the art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery (this term dates from 1259-1300).

    in Dictionary.com this is the definition of DIVINATION:
    the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means. (this term dates from 1350-1400)
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    oops, double post ???
     

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