US Policy on the Jews in WWII

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Dr. Bob, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Reading some fascinating (and very sad) information on what/when Roosevelt knew about the systematic extermination of Europe's Jewry. The intrigue was phenomenal and the anti-semitism rampant.

    Bottom line (thus far) is that Roosevelt and all his cabinet knew of Auschwitz et al and made conscious decisions not to intervene. Not to bomb the rr lines taking Jews to the death camp. Not to bomb the gas chambers/ovens. These were all simple and easy targets.

    One member pushed that the bombs were to support US troops and not Europe's Jews. If they saved one US soldier's life it was better than saving a million Jews.

    I am getting more and more frustrated over the information I'm reading. Anyone hear about this?
     
  2. blackbird

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    Brother Bob---the subject is of a "touchy" nature---the question that Roosevelt, Churchill, & Co. had to ask was

    Do we take a direct approach to the concentration camps---do we concentrate all of our efforts to liberate the 20 or 30 camps spread out over the continent---or do we concentrat on liberation of the continent???

    True, Roosevelt may have heard of the horrors of places like Aushwitz---but it was not, IMO---an automatic thing to just go in and liberate the camp---

    In other words, liberation of the death camps was not going to solve the problem! The problem was---#1---how to get rid of the Nazi swines in leadership and #2 how to have complete and solitary victory over the German War Machine---a most formidable foe to vanquish--even with a combined effort of the US, British, & Canadians on a Western Front---and the Russians on the Eastern Front!!!-----even in the waining weeks before the end of the war---there was that doubt in the minds of Eisenhower, Bradley and Co.---concerning the outcome of the war----even as late as March, 1945 the Allies were not "guaranteed" a complete victory!

    The bombing of the rr facilities?? As in any war---stradegists combine heads to rank certain potential targets for bombing runs---and the decision was made to make rr facilities in industrial regions main priority----rob the Nazi swines of their ability to produce war!!

    As far as bombing the "ovens and gas chambers"--one must remember the technology of "yester-year"---a squadron of B-17 Flying Fortresses carrying a couple of tons of bombs each---flying at an altitude of 20,000 feet with a Focke-Wolf 110 on their tails with machine guns "twinklin'"---makes for a very nervous bombadeer---when the payload of bombs are dropped-----how many of the "tons and tons" of bombs could you count on---that would actually hit the oven---"dead center"---accuracy was measured in half--to whole miles bomb drop radius---and not as in laser guided---where you can drop smart bombs down air condition shafts!!!

    Liberation came to camps---mainly as US and Brit Divisions slogged their way inch by inch---I read one account where a US division had liberated a particular camp---they opened the gates--told the prisoners they were free----some prisoners just wanted to "hang around"---no where to go!! The US troops loaded a group of prisoners just liberated onto trucks--drove them into the nearest town--dropped them off and then went to the camp to pick up another load---on their way back to town with the next load, they were met by the prisoners they had just dropped off--on THEIR way BACK to the camp---finally, the US troops started fireing their machine guns(over the heads of the prisoners)--telling them---"You are free---go home--do not come back here!!"---of course, there were many, many prisoners in no shape to go anywhere!!

    We can go on and on!
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    More reading. Roosevelt's message to Hitler's puppet government in Hungary told them THEY would be held culpable if they deported Jews to the death camps. This was 1943.

    By DDay 1944 they had shipped one million Jews. After the war, the leaders wept and said that they sent messages to the allies to bomb rail yards or bridges between Hungary and Poland. This, they claimed, would have stopped all deportation for months and months.

    All 20/20 hindsight and weaseling out of responsibility, but at the same time, a few bombers diverted from a ball-bearing factory could have saved one million Jews.
     
  4. blackbird

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    If war were run by "20/20 Hindsight" we'd win every time!!!

    Brother Bob---have you researched any particular "bombing runs"---done any research on the possibilities that there actually WERE sorties sent to disrupt---seems like that out of all the hundreds of thousands of missions and sorties from the USAAF and the RAF----that at least SOME were sent to do particularily what you're looking for!! I'm just trying to say that we can't really say of a surety that not a single sortie was scrambled for the subject at hand!
     
  5. Roy

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    What is it that you are reading, Dr. Bob?

    Roy
     
  6. Johnv

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    Dr. Bob, hindsight is always 20/20. You can find "woulda/shoulda/coulda" writings on probably every military skirmish in the history of the world. Roosevelt ant WW2 is no exception. Like the folks who "claim" Rossevelt knew "all about" Pearl Harbor before it happenned, which just ain't the case, at least not in the manner in which the conspiracy nutjobs claim.

    The bottom line is that:

    1 - War is more adept at determining who is left than who is right.

    2 - History is ultimately written by the victor. Just ask anyone from the UK about the Colonial Rebellion of 1776.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Dr. Bob,

    Is this from a book? I would be interested in learning more.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. blackbird

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    I just finished reading the book, "The Holocaust" written by Nora Levin---a year by year detail of the uprising and downfall of anti-semitism in Germany---from 1933-1945

    The book is not for the weak stomached reader

    But could it be---the reason for the non-involvement of the Allies during this time---is because of basic ignorance of what was going on?? I mean, the NAZI's kept the so called Final Solution---so "hush-hush"---that when the Allies finally began receiving reports of the crimes against humanity---these reports were so graphic--that the nations involved COULD NOT believe the reports----crimes against humanity so graphic that the people said--more or less---"No one would or could do such a thing!!"---not until the reports of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising would the outside world bring itself to believe what what happening!!

    Sure, I believe for the most part that the outside world KNEW that the NAZI pigs dispised the Juden people---but didn't realize the level of dispising!!!!

    And again---the Warsaw uprising was in the year 1943--almost a full year before the Normandy Invasion---and again--by then---after the Warsaw uprising---most of the Allied nations knew of the atrocities----and even then---it was impossible to just "go in" and liberate these camps "right then and there"----even as the Allies were "sandwiching" the German Army in late 1944-45 the gasing was at its heaviest--even then!
     
  9. Johnv

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    The bottom line is that the blame for the Holocause lies with Hitler and his regime. Not the US, not the Allies, not the Swiss, not the Vatican, not the Aborigines, not Indiana Jones, and not the creators of Spongebob Squarepants.
     
  10. blackbird

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    Johnv--I believe that we were trying to figure---why there was no Allied involvement to aid the Jews---to rescue them---I was not aware that somebody was tryin' to accuse Spongebob of collaborating with the enemy!
     
  11. Johnv

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    You said it yourself, blackbird. Here are some snippets from your posts above:

    "But could it be ... that ... Spongebob ... for the most part ... was ... collaborating with ... the NAZI's".

    Just kidding with ya! No, it wasn't Spongebob. It was Barney.

    Seriously, I'm not implying that anyone was outright saying that it was anyone but Hitler's fault, but I also don't want anyone reading the posts to, by selective reasing, infer that anyone is saying that either.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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  13. Dr. Bob

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    Agree 100% for the blame for the Holocaust.

    But the blame for not STOPPING it when they could have (rather than waiting until allied armies actually liberated camps) is validly put on others.
     
  14. blackbird

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    Can you elaborate on your post, Dr. Bob??

    Because "reasoning" with Hitler---for the Allies---was out of the question---

    IOW---they, when they realized the extent of the inhumanity---knew that they just couldn't ask---"Now, Adolf!! Listen----you gotta let all these people go! If you don't, we'll bomb . . . If you do, we'll draw a line in our advancement and let you keep . . ."

    See what I'm saying?? The Allied Army Commanders were out for one thing---the total destruction of the German Forces---unconditional surrender---the war wasn't about just liberating several camps--it was about liberating several continents---the camps were just one small part of a huge process!!
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    In 1943 Jewish leaders came to FDR and anyone who would listen and told them about the holocaust. Gave details, names, places, etc.

    The US could never reason with Hitler/German high command on this; the only way to stop it or stem the tide was to destroy the camps (most of which had taken 3 years to build and would take 3 more years to rebuild). Or destroy the transport system.

    Many times Wiesel and others came pleading. As German puppet governments were established in 1944 in Hungary and Romania, they were ordered to deport all Jews for execution. Wiesel knew this and gave specific targets to stop transport.

    It was a cold callous and concious decision of FDR and his cabinet not to even pass word of this on to his field generals. And forbid such bombing.

    I'm done with the book and truly sick. FDR was a very evil man. No wonder he liked Stalin and didn't trust Churchill as much. But that is another topic.
     
  16. blackbird

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    The German High Command(Army) on numerous occasions protested Hitler's Final Solution---see, it wasn't in the hands of High Command---Jodl(Commendant of the Army) was a "weaklin'" in the eyes of Himmler and his croonies---who were not part of High Command but were part of the Waffen SS---which "barked" orders to the High Command.

    Keep reading books, O famed Doctor!! I'm sure that there's more than one book out there that will depict FDR as more than just "a very evil man." To put FDR in the same catagory(very evil man) as Hitler and Stalin----well . . .! I'm not going to put FDR in the "evil" catagory just because he failed to target the targets you imagine he should have targeted!! These guys(FDR, Eisenhower, George Marshall(Army Chief of Staff) etc.---were under extreme pressure---decisions were made---knowing that those decisions would cost an estimated amount of lives one way or other!! To stop an engine from running---you can either plug up the exhaust pipe---or you can turn off the ignition switch---IMO---these men chose to turn off the ignition switch---IOW---choke off Hitler's capability to make war!
     
  17. Dr. Bob

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    Remember, I put FDR next to Lincoln as the two worst Presidents the US has endured. So anyone that question HIS morals and decisions is a friend of mine!
     
  18. Roy

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    It is a mystery. Roosevelt likely had Jewish blood running through his veins and Stalin certainly did, as did most of the founding fathers of international communism. In giving Roosevelt the benefit of a doubt, it could be possible that he was concerned for the good Jews of Germany and sought an alliance with the evil Jew (Stalin)with the hope of quickening the demise of extreme Nazi oppression. Of course now, I'm only guessing.

    Roy
     
  19. Matt Black

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    Certainly the US and UK could have put the extermination camps out of business by bombing the crematoria, but I will have to bow to others' knowledge as to whether this could have been safely done using the technology of the time without risking the lives of the Jews in the accommodation blocks a few feet away...

    Churchill was certainly sidelined by Roosevelt on the conduct of the war, particularly with regard to Roosevelt's rabid anti-colonialism; had FDR not been so bent on dismantling the British and French Empires (eg: supporting Ho Chi Minh), it is more likely that decolonisation could have been accomplished more slowly, more peaceably and more effectively with the Third World not being so much of the complete mess it is now - oh, and probably no Vietnam War(s) either...

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  20. blackbird

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    Roy's got a point about the bombing---like I said earlier---the method used then was the latest in technology back then---the B-17 and B-24---both used in what was called "precision" bombing--

    Unlike bombers of today--which with their precision bombing can hit the needle in a hay stack---back then, the bombadeers were happy to just drop a bomb relativly "close" to the haystack--then hope that somehow---with luck--the needle is hit----that with a Focke-Wolfe breathing down his back!!!!!

    Bombing of railways was being done---but railways had so many "spurs"---that unless EVERY rail track is hit---locomotives can easily bypass whats been knocked out until repairs can hastily be made!

    My judgement is not upon FDR--the war was not about HIS morals and decisions---and the war was not about liberating several "camps" but liberating several "continents".

    Liberation of several camps---what???---might have taken 2 to 3 good Army divisions --- liberation of several continents---demanded 100+ Divisions.
     

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