Vengeance = Wrath?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ray Berrian, Jan 6, 2005.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    What is the difference between the Lord's vengeance and His wrath?
     
  2. Wes Outwest

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    What is the difference between the Lord's vengeance and His wrath?

    vengeance, n.
    1. infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?
    2. an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble: to take one's vengeance.
    3. the desire for revenge: a man full of vengeance.
    4. Obs. hurt; injury.
    5. Obs. curse; imprecation.
    6. with a vengeance,
    a. with force or violence.
    b. greatly; extremely.
    c. to an unreasonable, excessive, or surprising degree: He attacked the job with a vengeance.
    —Syn. 1. requital, retaliation. See revenge.
    —Ant. 1. forgiveness.

    wrath, räth or, esp. Brit., rôth), n.
    1. strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire.
    2. vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.
    –adj.
    3. Archaic. wroth.
    —Syn. 1. rage, resentment, fury, choler.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Why do people continue to think that citing English dictionaries of Greek words used in theological contexts is an answer?? Please folks ... let's deal with theology.

    Yes, biblically speaking, his vengeance seems to be the same as his wrath, at least practically speaking. Did you have some specific reference in mind? And how does this deal with CvA?
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    Then why don't you post the theological definition of "vengeance" and "wrath" and lets see how they differ from the english definition!
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Because I don't have time to get deeply involved in it. Get out a theological dictionary and some commentaries, along with some lexicons and look them up.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    Your recommendations for an Electronic Theological dictionary would be useful.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    Don't know of any electronic theological dictionaries. I like hardbound stuff myself. The only e-stuff I have is BibleWorks and the Theological Journal CD.
     
  8. rc

    rc
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    Wes,

    Try Bibleworks software... It's the best, period.
     
  9. rc

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    Pastor Larry

    Great minds think alike.. and pretty much at the same time also ! ha...
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Dr. Merrill C. Tenney, Ph.D. has said, VENGEANCE (Hebrew, naqam, to grudge), any punishment meted out in the sense of retribution.

    WRATH (the translation of many Hebrew and Greek words, and ranges widely in tone, intensity and effects. . . . the wrath of man, which never works the righteousness of God [James 1:20]. The wrath of God is just, pure, and holy and dreadful to evildoers (Numbers 11:1-10; Hebrews 10:26-31). It is less frequently mentioned in the N.T. than in the O.T., the wrath is no less terrible, most so as the wrath of the Lamb. [Rev. 6:16; John 1:29] This wrath abides on him who does not obey the Son of God [John 3:36].’ {taken from Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary}

    I am sure there must be a defining difference between these two words, but I have not found it.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Vengeance is retaliation for something done to you, which you attempt to avenge for! You have a personal motivation to avenge an unjust act or situation, and your target is the perpetrator of the act or condition against you.

    Wrath is venting of anger without specific or defineable cause or direction or target.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    Wes, Outwest,

    I like some of what you said.

    I think we can rightly say that we all have sinned against the Lord and that if we do not receive Christ, He has every sovereign right to retaliate against the sinner with his revengeful wrath.

    I do think that His wrath will fall on all who refuse or willfully neglect He and His atonement. The Lord God’s wrath only settles on sinners, not His people. The Apostle Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:9 ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep (as in death) we shall live together with Him.’ [​IMG] This is our blessed hope.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    I would suggest Ray that God will pour out his wrath upon the condition of Sin, the persons and agencies of evil, Not specifically on man, but only those men who have refused him.

    Scriptures state "Vengeance is mine" sayeth the Lord. Telling us that we are not the ones who need to venge for acts committed against us, for God Himself will do that avenging for us and in our stead, but in His time and His way.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Wes, these two statements seem contradictory. You first say that wrath has not specific or definable cause, direction, or target (problemmatic in itself since it makes God capricious. His wrath has a clear cause and target: sin and those who do it). Then you say that God's wrath is poured out on sin, which incidentally meets your first definition of vengeance. So while there may be a slightly different color, there is no clear difference that I can see.
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    When God pours out his wrath, it will not be target specific in the manner that vengeance is target specific. God's wrath is against powers and principalities all of which are not defineable by man.

    His Vengeance will have specific targets....those who have done harm to those we idendify as believers, or God's children, and those have been defined from the beginning, and include All persecutors, and I personally believe all abortionists as an example.
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    Revelation 6:15-17 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

    Ephesians 5:6 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

    Here are just two of many verses that describe the specific targets of wrath, not just powers and principalities that are undefinable by man.

    Wes, what leads you to make this distinction?
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Wes,

    I think the good pastor Larry got you on this one.

    The Lord's wrath will be on human beings namely the lost. Yes, institutions like abortion clinics will be subject to His wrath, but it will not be the walls of the building. The doctors and staff who perform these attrocities will feel the holy anger/vengeance on their never dying souls. Punishment forever.

    Another example will be Communists and Arab types who have persecuted Christians around the world. Pay day is coming for them! :eek:
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Principalities and powers are not earth governments for we do not wrestle against them. We wrestle against spiritual things such as sin, evil, seduction, lies and liars, evil spirits, demons, etc.

    That is not to say that governments are not a problem, but we uniquely and individually "wrestle against" things of spirit. And I know of no clear definition of them.

    And Ray is isn't the buildings and people it is the spirit of evil that accompanies abortion.

    And it will be the spirit of Communism, Fascism, Islam, etc. that the wrath of God is poured out on.

    Vengeance is taken against those larry mentions, and yes I recognize scripture calls that wrath. But my graceous, who appoints those leaders? In is God, and God will avenge their deeds.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Wes,

    You gave us a lot of truth in those very brief five paragraphs. Only among spiritual people would we be understood as saying that we are fighting evil spirits and evil angelic beings while living on this earth.

    The world would think we should be in a psychiatric ward counting the dots on the ceiling, behind locked doors.

    Nevertheless, you have told the truth and the reality of our present situation as leaders in His victorious church. Keep on fighting! :D
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    I believe that not only are their evil spirits always around us to try to make us fall, but there is inherent evil in the real lives of sinners and unfortunately, at times in His people, though we do not make a practice of sinning.

    God speaking through the writer of Proverbs says in 21:4:

    Even ‘ . . . a high look, and a proud heart and the plowing of the wicked is sin.’ :mad: When God looks at sinners He sees sinfulness. Thus, the need of a Redeemer/Savior.
     

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