Verses by John Wycliffe

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Aug 11, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    John Wycliffe was born in 1324 , 1329 or 1330 -- take your pick . We do know for sure that he died in 1384 . I read a sermon of his called : Christ's Real Body Not In The Eucharist . In it he quotes some Scripture . He had either translated the Vulgate into English or translated a French version into English . His Scripture citations certainly are not from the Wycliffe Bibles . We don't know how much he had to do with the first one which was very literal -- a word-for-word translation released the year of his death . The second one was released in 1396 . It was an idiomatic translation -- in the language of the people at that time . Nicholas Hereford and John Purvey as well as others might have been responsible for one or both Bibles. But again , the following passages are not from the Wycliffe Bibles . I am not posting the verses to critique them . I just thought they would be interesting to compare with other renderings we are more familiar with . I will say though that the KJV seems almost gender inclusive by comparison .

    The original language has been mildly updated ( not by myself ) .


    For as by Adam they all die , even so by Christ shall all live , and every man in his own order ; for as one clearness is in the sun , another in the moon , and a star in clearness is nothing in comparison to the sun ; even so the rising again of the dead for we are sown in corruption and shall rise again incorruptible , we are sown in infirmity , and shall rise again in strength ; we are sown in natural bodies , and shall rise again spiritual bodies . ( 1 Cor.15:22-23a & 41 - 44a . He combines the verses as if they are all from the same unedited place .)

    As oft as ye do this thing do it in mind of me . ( 1 cor. 11:25 )

    And neither is it circumcision that is openly in the flesh , but he that is circumcised of heart in spirit , not the letter whose praising is not of men , but of God . ( Romans 2:28,29 )

    And so baptism of like form maketh not us safe , but the putting away of the filthiness of the flesh , and the having of good conscience in God by the rising again of our Lord Jesus Christ from death , that we should be made heirs of everlasting life , He went up into heaven , and angels , and powers , and virtues , are made subjects to Him . ( 1 Peter 3:21,22 )

    A stronger than I shall come after me , and I am not worthy to kneel down and unlace His shoe . ( from either Mark 1 or Matthew 3 )

    No man saw God ; none but the only begotten Son that is in the bosom of the Father , He hath told it out . ( John 1:18 )

    Every man that sinneth seeth not him , neither knoweth him . ( John 3:6 )

    Whom ye have not seen ye love , into whom ye now not seeing believe . ( 1 Peter 1:8 )

    This cup is the new testament in my blood that shall be shed unto the remission of sins for man . ( In this case JW identifies the passage as Luke . But I think it is from Matthew 26:27,28 )

    Woman , thou wottest not what thou asketh ; then He said to them , May ye drink of the cup that I shall drink ? and they said , Yea , Lord . And He said , Ye shall drink of my cup , but to sit on my right hand or left hand it is not mine to give , but to the father it is proper . ( Matt. 20:22,23 )

    ... and shall not understand , less they be converted ; for I hide them from the hearts of those people ; their hearts are greatly fatted . ( Matt. 13:15 ? )

    Go , for the people have done the worst sin to make and worship alien gods . ( Ex. 32 )
     
  2. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    Re: verses from 1395 Wycliffe's

    Verses from 1395 edition of Wycliffe's Bible


    Job 24:23 [old spelling]
    God yaf to hym place of penaunce, and he mysusith that in to pride; for the iyen of God ben in the weies of that man

    Job 38:32 [updated spelling]
    Whether thou bringest forth Lucifer, that is, day star, in his time,
    and makest even star to rise on the sons of earth


    Matthew 3:8 [updated spelling]
    Therefore do ye worthy fruit of penance

    Matthew 4:1 [updated spelling]
    Than Jesus was led of a spirit into desert, to be tempted of the fiend.

    Matthew 4:7 [updated spelling]
    Eftsoon Jesus said to him, It is written, Thou shalt not tempt thy Lord God.
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I bought a wonderful little ( 302 pages) several weeks ago . It is by Richard West , and is called "Chaucer 1340-1400 : The Life And Times Of The First English Poet . " He mentions some fasinating things about Chaucer's " The Parson's Tale " .

    West says : It is principally interesting for the way Chaucer translates biblical texts from Latin or French into popular English and how this compares with the King James or Authorised Version two centuries later . To take an example :

    Of the springing of sins , as Saint Paul saith , in this wise ; that right as by man entered first into this world , and through that syne death , right so thilke deth entered into alle men that synneden ; and this man was Adam ; Of that like Adam took we thilke synne original , for of him fleshly descendit be we alle , and engendrit of vile and corrupt matiere ... ( 184,185)
     
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    Dick Cimino suggested that Wycliffe’s Bible of 1382 came “from the same type of Greek text” as the KJV (The Book, p. 14). David Cloud listed Wycliffe’s as part of the heritage of the KJV (Faith, p. 433). Cloud wrote that “the foundation for the English Bible was the Wycliffe Bible of 1384” (p. 532). Cloud noted: “In English, the Word of God was preserved prior to 1611 with some impurities in the Wycliffe version based on Latin from 1384” (Bible Version Question/Answer, p. 92). He described it as “a good Bible with plain, powerful language” (p. 96). Cloud commented: “Though Wycliffe translated from Latin rather than Hebrew and Greek, his translation was good” (pp. 170-171). Gail Riplinger claimed that it is a myth that the Wycliffe Bible came from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate (In Awe, pp. 773, 788-789).


    Geddes MacGregor pointed out that Wycliffe’s “was enormously popular, attaining an astonishing circulation for a book issued before the days of printing” (Literary History, p. 79). It is not known how much of the translating was actually done by John Wycliffe. MacGregor noted that “to Nicholas of Hereford is to be attributed the greater part of the translation into English of the Old Testament in the manuscript in the Bodleian Library, Oxford” (p. 78). Deanesly maintained “that one person [John Purvey] wrote the General Prologue [to the Old Testament], and that he edited also the second version of the Wycliffite Bible” (Lollard Bible, pp. 266, 377). David Daniell suggested that John Trevisa was a translator of “the later improved edition” of Wycliffe’s Bible (Bible in English, pp. 91-95). Glenn Conjurske asserted: “as for the Wycliffe Bible being translated from the Old Latin, there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. It was translated from the Latin Vulgate, and is in fact a very literal translation from the Vulgate” (Olde Paths, April, 1994, p. 94). MacGregor also maintained that the Wycliffe Bible “follows it [the Latin Vulgate] very closely” (Literary History, p. 79).


    John Wycliffe wrote: “Regarding Jerome’s translation, it seems fitting that it be approved as much by the sanctity of his life . . . as by his expertise in the Hebrew language and the complete agreement of his translation with the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts” (Levy, John Wyclif, p. 157). Wycliffe also noted: “One need not believe that St. Jerome’s translation is free from error” (p. 156). Wycliffe's Bible included the Apocrypha and in the New Testament adds the epistle of Laodiceans.

    Wycliffe's Bible translated Matthew 3:2 as "Saying, Do ye penance" (The Gospels, p. 11 and John Wycliff and the English Bible, p. 92). Along with its use at Matthew 3:2, this rendering "penance" is also found other times in Wycliffe's (Matt. 21:29; 21:32; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 15:7, etc.). Wycliffe's Bibel has the rendering "priests" instead of "elders" in Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5. At Matthew 3:6, Wycliffe's Bible has "and they were christened of him in Jordan." It read "Jesus christened" at Luke 3:21 and “christened“ at Acts 18:8. The rendering "sacrament" can be found in Wycliffe's Bible at Ephesians 1:9, 3:3, 3:9, 5:32; Colossians 1:27, 1 Timothy 3:16, and Revelation 1:20 and 17:7. It has “deacon” (Luke 10:32) instead of “Levite” and “bishops” (John 7:45, 11:47, 18:3) instead of “chief priests.“ Wycliffe’s has “Christ” (1 Sam. 2:10, 2 Sam. 23:1, Ps. 2:2) where the KJV has “anointed” and “Jesus” (Hab. 3:18) where the KJV has “salvation.“ Wycliffe's has "maiden" instead of "virgin" at Luke 1:27 and “old women in holy habit“ at Titus 2:3 instead of “aged women.” Wycliffe's Bible has the rendering "Calvary" from the Latin Vulgate's Calvariae at Matthew 27:33 and Mark 15:22 where the KJV does not. Wycliffe's Bible has “Isaiah the prophet“ (Mark 1:2), “fruit of light“ (Eph. 5:9), "dread of Christ" (Eph. 5:21), and “eagle“ (Rev. 8:13). Clearly, many words or renderings in the Wycliffe's Bible are different from those in the KJV.


    Wycliffe’s Bible omitted “for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever“ (Matt. 6:13), "Jesus saith unto them" (Matt. 13:51), "wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 25:13), “spoken by Daniel the prophet“ (Mark 13:14), “But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work“ (Rom. 11:6), and “and in your spirit, which are God‘s“ (1 Cor. 6:10). It added: "taught them of the kingdom of God" (Matt. 21:17), "and he shall increase" (Luke 19:26), “and he saith to his disciples” (John 13:38 or 14:1), “of Jesus“ (Acts 16:7), and “after the purpose of God‘s grace“ (Rom. 4:5). At Matthew 24:41, this addition is in Wycliffe's: "twain in one bed, the one shall be taken and the other left." The following was added at John 7:28: "I know him, and if I shall say for I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar." At Acts 14:7, there is this addition: “and all the multitude was moved together in the teaching of them.“ At Acts 15:41, it added: “commanding to keep the hests of apostles and elder men.“ Wycliffe’s has this addition at Acts 18:4: “putting among the name of the Lord Jesus.“ At 2 John 11, it added: "Lo, I before said to you that ye be not confounded in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." At Revelation 9:11, it added the following: “And by Latin he has the name Exterminans, that is, a destroyer.“ Other differences (additions and omissions) in Wycliffe's could be given.


    Both the early edition of Wycliffe’s Bible and the later edition also have some additions that seem to be explanations of words used in the text. Glenn Conjurske observed: “The glosses in the early version are very plentiful, and most of them are simply definitions or explanations of words” (Olde Paths, Oct., 1994, p. 228). A few examples from the later edition are here offered as evidence. After “delium” at Genesis 2:12, the 1395 Wycliffe Bible added: “that is, a tree of spicerie.” At Exodus 17:13, the 1395 Wycliffe Bible has the following rendering with explanation in the text: “in the mouth of sword, that is, by the sharpness of the sword.” At the end of Numbers 21:3 after “Hormah,“ several words were added in the later Wycliffe’s [“that is, cursing, either hanging up”]. After “great” at Deuteronomy 4:7, the 1395 Wycliffe Bible has this addition: “not in number either in bodily quantity, but in dignity.”


    This Bible rendered the Latin Vulgate at Psalm 23:1a as follows: "Our Lord governeth me." At Genesis 36:24, Wycliffe's has "hot waters" as does the Douay-Rheims instead of "mules," the KJV rendering. Some of the examples in the above paragraphs showed that Wycliffe's Bible included some Vulgate readings in its text. MacGregor confirmed that the translation in the Wycliffe Bible follows the text of the Latin Vulgate “very closely” (Literary History, p. 79). This evidence also suggests that Wycliffe’s differs more from the KJV than does Webster's, the NKJV, the MKJV, KJ21, or KJ2000. The fact that many KJV-only advocates can accept Wycliffe’s Bible when it differs more from the KJV than some present English translations points out serious inconsistencies in KJV-only reasoning.


     
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