Virginia Baptists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by rsr, Nov 15, 2002.

  1. rsr

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    http://www.abpnews.com/abpnews/story.cfm?newsId=3349

    Any Virginia Southern Baptists care to comment?
     
  2. Clint Kritzer

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    It's a sad state of affairs. I was unable to attend the Virginia Beach conference but was at the preliminary meeting in Charlottesville last May.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000216

    My offerings will be specifically designated from here on out unless I can talk my church into not supporting the BGAV. Somehow, people got this notion that evangelism is a numbers game and that we need to spread the word no matter what the costs. Somehow in all the hub-bub we forgot the message of 1Timothy 4:16.
     
  3. Bible-boy

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    According to the article, "But the "World Missions 2" track, the one favored by a majority of BGAV churches, was modified to include new funds for Kingdom Advance initiatives. That leaves 12.5 percent less in that particular track that will go to the SBC International and North American Mission boards and the Annuity Board next year.

    That change drew criticism in a breakout discussion from a messenger who said such reduction of funds to the SBC was driving churches to seek affiliation with the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia, a group formed in 1996 that is solely aligned with the SBC."

    My advice to all Southern Baptists in Virginia, who want to be sure that their missions offerings go to SBC missions work, would be to either designate their offering specifically to the SBC/IMB or call on your church to affiliate solely with the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia. Let the BGAV line up with the liberal CBF and die (sorry if that sounds harsh).

    [ November 17, 2002, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  4. rsr

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    Clint, is your concern that funds will go to nonBaptist organizations, rather than through the SBC and CBF? And that will lead to dilution of the Baptist message?
     
  5. Baptist Believer

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    It's not a matter or SBC or CBF... :rolleyes: , it's a matter of doing what God has called you and Virginia Baptists to do.

    SBC advocates are fond of saying that is a group is not going to play along with the latest whims of the SBC leadership that they are going to join the CBF. :rolleyes: They've been saying this nonsense for years about the Baptist General Convention of Texas. Many Texas Baptists don't feel comfortable with the SBC or the CBF, so we are choosing our partnerships carefully. It is also my understanding that a Baptists of the Americas association is in the works that Texas Baptists, Virginia Baptists and other alienated conventions and churches can join to cooperatively carry out the Great Commission.

    If nothing else, the BGCT is proof that a state convention can follow Christ apart from the control of the SBC without "joining the CBF".
     
  6. rsr

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    Yes, but that's pretty foreign to the folks who either 1) were ousted from a fairly strong denominational structure they had helped to build or 2) hoped to inherit a strong denominational structure when they gained the upper hand.

    My opinion, voiced before, is that denominationalism is on the wane inside and outside the SBC and CBF, which is one reason the CBF will never become a full-fledged denomination. From what I've heard, young ministers coming out of the seminaries are less and less interested in the denomination as such, but in who can provide the resources they think their churches need, hence the reliance on partnerships.

    Which helps explain why attendance at the SBC annual convention is so poor.

    [ November 16, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  7. Rev. Joshua

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    RSR, you're right on the money. We had Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. at McAfee who were almost ambivalent about the denomination where they would seek ordination. If the clergy don't care, then it's unlikely the laypeople will.

    As for the baptists there, most (if not all) would have rather lost an arm then become involved in denominational turf wars. We are definitely moving into a post-denominational era for most believers.

    Joshua
     
  8. Clint Kritzer

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    Hi rsr -

    Yes, that analysis is correct. Funds contributed by well-meaning Baptist pew sitters will be used for spreading heretical, non-Scriptural teachings.

    The whole effort is fueled by the anti-fundamentalists emotions that have been propogated throughout the SBC affiliated churches in the past few decades. While I disagree strongly with some of the Machiavellian moves made by the SBC leadership, I even more strongly disagree with throwing out the baby with the bath water.

    In this modern world of turning on the water spigot instead of having to carry water from a well, people expect immediate change. Just because the SBC is not going "their" way, they are willing to abandon the ship. I don't believe that most people realize what a slow moving institution the SBC is. Change is affected in terms of decades, not weeks. If we want change within the denomination it comes from within the infrastraucture and requires patience and participation.

    In my own church there is a strong anti-SBC movement. Some have approached me on this knowing that I try to follow historic Baptist thinking and to try to gain my support on breaking ties with the Convention. My stock response has become, "how many messengers did we send to the Convention this year?" The answer is NONE. Rather than trying to bring the political pendulum back into the center within the SBC, folks would rather just abandon the effort.

    Unfortunately, most of the people within my church are completely numb to the workings of the BGAV and the SBC. At the very least, the current SBC leadership does propogate Biblical teachings and the spread of correct doctrine. Aligning ourselves with other Christian sects is NOT going to accomplish these same ends. Part of the Kingdom Advance strategy is to go into the field, plant churches, and then pull out, leaving the new founded churches and Christians vulnerable to the false teachers about whom Paul warned us.

    I would like to try to push that we join the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia. I doubt that I will be able to push this agenda effectively because of the connotations affiliated with the term "conservative" but I will make the effort nonetheless.
     
  9. Clint Kritzer

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  10. Bible-boy

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  11. Bible-boy

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    Wow,

    24 hours have passed by and my previous post remains the last word on what I thought would be a really "hot topic." I guess my Virginian brethern just are not interested in the discussion of the direction that the state convention is heading. Curious.... :confused:

    [ November 18, 2002, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    I can't speak for anyone else, but I was out of town most of the weekend and really busy today.
     
  13. Baptist Believer

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    I maintain that the SBC is doing what God has called me and the Baptists of my home state Virginia to do.
    </font>[/QUOTE]
    </font>[/QUOTE]That is certainly your opinion and you have your right to it.

    Certainly the alleged “liberals” that allegedly fill the CBF might think the SBC has a low view of scripture.

    Again, you have an opinion about the CBF and you have your right to it, but be careful about slandering people (claiming them to be liberal if they are not and claiming they have a “low view of scripture”) just to bolster your opinions.

    Nope. On the face of this you are wrong. While you allege (and you may be right) that supporters of the GBAV see the CBF as one of the only viable mission alternatives to the SBC, it is still a matter of choice between the SBC, the CBF, joining with Texas Baptists, starting their own missions programs and structure for cooperation, or doing something else entirely. Just because a convention may withdraw from full SBC participation *does not necessarily* mean that they embrace the CBF. The Baptist General Convention of Texas is a living example of that.

    Sorry, but this statement does not make sense. Perhaps you left out a word or mixed up your terms? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Did you mean to say, SBC advocates are fond of saying that if a group is not going to play along...? If so, I say see my comments below about the connection between the BGCT, CBF, Mainstream Baptists, and the Baptist Convention of the Americas.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I’m sorry… My fingers don’t always type what I intend. You did interpret it correctly.

    I'm not sure who this "Baptists of the Americas" organization is, who are its leaders? Are they affiliated or associated with "Mainstream Baptists"?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Not really, but the idea for such a convention was presented at a “Texas Baptists Committed” breakfast a few years ago. The idea has caught on among many laypeople and there seems to be popular support to create such a convention.

    Yep. Those Baptist ideals like soul liberty, separation of church and state, priesthood of the believer, autonomy of the local church, and resistance to external creeds.

    But many conservative Baptists have those views…

    Yes. But those “CBF issues” (like I just named above) are held by most Baptists throughout the world.

    You’ve just branded an enormous group of people “liberals” (including me) without any evidence or consideration. You seem to believe that if someone opposed the naked power grabs of the current and recent SBC leadership, they must be liberal themselves or deceived by liberals! :rolleyes:

    If nothing else, the BGCT is proof that a state convention can follow Christ apart from the control of the SBC without "joining the CBF".

    Of course you are correct that state conventions are independent of the SBC, but the element of “control” I was referring to is the way the SBC tries to run state conventions by influence, slander and mass media. I guess that Texas Baptists have the clearest picture of this since we have been under constant assault from Baptist Press, the Executive Committee and many individuals for most of the last decade.

    Sure.

    No they are not. To understand the relationship between these groups, you need to do a little more than play the game of “guilt by association” that is so popularly used by the SBC advocates. :rolleyes:

    The Mainstream Baptist network began as a fellowship of state support agencies modeled after the group “Texas Baptists Committed”. None of these Mainstream Baptist groups are officially tied to the state conventions. While they may hold common cause with other groups and be listed as “friends” or “allies”, that does not mean that there is a formal relationship or that each group necessarily agrees with the positions of the other.

    The BGCT is associated with the CBF in the sense that the BGCT passes on contributions designated to CBF by BGCT member churches. The BGCT also sends money to the SBC the same way. (By your logic, that makes the SBC an ally of the CBF because of the “connection” with Texas Baptists and the dual alignment of many churches!)

    Yeah whatever… :rolleyes: Don’t let reality get in the way.

    [ November 18, 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  14. stubbornkelly

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    My home church left the VA Convention because it wasn't conservative enough. I'm not too up on the local governance.
     
  15. Bible-boy

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    Originally Posted by Baptistbeliever:
    Would you care to explain that reality so that I and everyone else can understand your enlightenment?

    [ November 19, 2002, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  16. Bible-boy

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    Hello Kelly,

    Is your home church now an independant Baptist Church? If they still hold to SBC type doctrines I would urge you to have your friends and family in that church contact the Southern Baptist Conseevatives of Virginia and see what they have to say.
     
  17. stubbornkelly

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    Lookee at what I found . . . .

    "Grove Avenue Baptist Church is. . . .
    A Bible believing New Testament Church based in Richmond, Virginia, with an outreach that includes mission projects in the community, the state and around the world. The church is a member of the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia and The Richmond Baptist Association."
     
  18. Clint Kritzer

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    Kelly -

    You were a member of Grove Avenue? There was a pastor there in the mid to late 1800's named William Hatcher who, after retiring from the pulpit, founded my high school, Fork Union Military Academy.

    Grove Avenue is a very well known and respected church, very influential in this part of the SBC world due to it's large membership!
     
  19. stubbornkelly

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    Since I was 8, Clint. I still am, officially. I kept my membership there through college, and they weren't keen on ending my membership there until I'd found a new church up here (which makes sense, I suppose).

    But you know, I've been away from that church for so long . . . I don't really know what the new pastor's major foci are. The last pastor was heavily into foreign missions (he and his wife were missionaryies in Brazil for 15 or 20 odd years), and there was a heavy missions push during his time there.

    I always forget you and Margie live in Virginia!

    [/side talk]
     

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