vision casting?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. nodak

    nodak
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    Bear in mind I lived many years in the Chaco Canyon area. We had all sorts of navel contemplators come to visit the area.

    A big activity for them was to do a sweat lodge in order to cast a vision.

    Now, I run into this all over in the church world. Pastors wanting to "cast a vision" for us to "catch and run with." Having us sit with our eyes closed and visualize while they cast a vision.

    I "get" goal setting. I "get" planning.

    But this vision casting stuff is so Chaco Canyon it gives me the heebie jeebies and sends me running.

    Do you/your church vision cast?

    How much New Age garbage do you believe has entered the church already?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    The comparison to the Indian vision casting is not equal or legitimate.

    1. Indians are not praying to the one true and living God for direction.
    2. Church members are not using a hallucinogenic to aid in receiving a vision.


    Vision casting in the church is nothing more than looking for direction from God. Playing on words in this way (as you have done) is misleading. We all look to receive direction from God for things in the church and in our individual lives.
     
  3. Ruiz

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    I agree with Rev Mitchell.

    I was advising a pastor not long ago on how to lead the congregation (My MBA is in Leadership). I simply told him that he should look into God's Word, see how to take the church from where it is to become more like the New Testament Church, and cast that vision in increments.

    Vision casting is not evil if the vision is Biblical.

    On the other hand, the vision casting that is demonstrated in the first post conveys some sort of mysticism. This mystical approach is garbage. In leading a church, the vision has been cast by the greatest of all minds, God's. We just need to become fully saturated by renewing our mind through God's Word in order to become more clear of His vision.

    The problem is not casting a vision. The question is whose vision are we seeking to implant in our congregations, ours or God's? God's does not come from mysticism but from the Bible.
     
  4. annsni

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    I think the issue is not what many of us would call "vision casting" or casting the vision to the church or whatever. Instead, the OP sounds like they are describing a meditative sort of thing seeking a "vision" from God - a "vision" as like maybe a dream? Am I right??
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    Here is the key statement:


    He seems to take issue with the Pastor casting vision and presenting it to the church and then making a false comparison between that and hallucinogenic peyote sweat lodges of Native Americans. Then he makes and overreaching statement by suggesting this is going on all over the church world.
     
  6. annsni

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    The "closing our eyes" is what gets me. I know our pastor has vision cast for us and it's been a time of discussing what's going on in the future of our church, prayer and worship. It's not a time to sit with our eyes closed trying to visualize what is being said like in a yoga class. That's kind of weird.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    It is weird to me as well. I believe such an action would be to get people to visualize what ever the vision would look like. Sometimes folks may struggle to understand what something may look like and therefore getting them to buy into it. But it falls way short of intentionally invoking a hallucination by means of peyote.
     
  8. abcgrad94

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    I've never heard of this happening in church before. I've heard of people meditating while walking in a circular type of maze, but not this. Maybe it's a regional thing.
     
  9. nodak

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    No, those coming to Chaco are not native americans using peyote, or even native americans. They were, when we lived there, usually blonde blue eyed Californians.

    If the "vision" is from God's word, why do we need to close our eyes and visualize it?

    If you don't think this is common, just google vision casting and see how many churches/church leaders are using the terminology.

    Why do we need business principles, for that matter, to evangelize the world? Preaching the gospel isn't enough?

    I realize "cast a vision" is considered by many to be "just another way of saying having an opinion of what the future of the organization should be."

    So why don't we say that? Why do we borrow a phrase from the New Age if we are not doing New Age stuff?

    Is it really any different than borrowing the phrase "cast a spell"?

    Should a pastor seeking to create a reflective mood for an invitation say "let's put a reflective spell on them"?

    What would happen should one of those navel gazers decide to come to a church some Sunday and hear the pastor talking about "vision casting"?

    It seems to me the lines are getting blurred. I was helping out a sister church at VBS last week. We had a young teen come one day. First thing he did was hop in a pew, legs crossed/arms on knees/fingers and thumb touching/eyes closed and announce he was going to teach the younger kids how to meditate. Apparently this was ok with the staff and other helpers. He was in my age group, so I asked him to step to the back of the auditorium with me, explained that had no place in a Christian church, and told him basically but nicely to stop or leave. He stayed.

    What struck me was not that he would try that, but that it seemed so ok with the other adults. But then again, this church has a "vision casting" pastor who uses many phrases that are straight out of New Age thinking.
     
  10. abcgrad94

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    Weird. I would feel uncomfortable with it as well. Might make a stumblingblock for some to open themselves up to New Age ideas.
     
  11. annsni

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    I'm always SOOO cautious of wording much to the dismay of some of the other staff at church. It gets my hackles up to use New Age terms, Emergent phrases, etc. I'm such a pain in the rear to them. :)

    But the idea of "vision casting" as far as I know it comes from the verse about where there is no vision, the people perish. It's not talking about visions like dreams but instead a plan - a goal. We've done some vision casting for our new church and in that, we've kind of looked at the community, what sort of people are we going to be reaching in that area, how can we best utilize the staff to make the first few weeks/months go smoothly - that sort of thing. We also recast the vision to the staff of the whole church that is planting us each September when we have our full day staff day. It helps us to get refocused on our mission statement, what sort of needs have been coming up in the church and to discuss what God has been revealing to us in our own personal relationship with Him. Interestingly enough, we often have God reveals the same thing to numerous people and we can see that it's not just personalities that are coming up with some idea but God. It's pretty cool!
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    First I know where Chaco Canyon is I am not far from there. Second sweat lodges are founded by native Americans and include peyote regardless of who is involved.

    Because The difficulty arrives from the application of it. I do not do the close your eyes thing. Prayer and patience is a much better practice. But it is a far cry from new age anything.


    Terminology and closing eyes to see the vision are not one in the same.

    Hyper-pragmatism is the issue here not new ageism.

    Your assumption here is that it is borrowed. The the inspired writers of scripture borrow that word from new agers?

    Pro 29:18 Where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but blessed is he who keeps the law.


    Night and day...apples and refrigerators

    no

    Possibly

    His action was inappropriate but it would have been helpful to make this the op instead of such a sweeping indictment. This clears things up more than your op.

    I'm not sure you know what is new age and what is not based on this thread. I am all for exposing lies in the church but we do not need to create false boogy men. The meditation thing going on in the church is found out of Hindu mysticism not necessarily new ageism. And things like contemplative prayer and such should have no place in the church.
     
  13. nodak

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    No, sweat lodge usage does not equal peyote cult. You need to learn a bit more.

    I'm very familiar with the New Age movement (not EVER a part of it.)

    I just noticed where you are--even the BCNM website is full of New Age thought.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    Please enlighten us with your interpretation of new age thought on the bcnm website. I am sure Dr. Bunce would be interested in your input.
     
    #14 Revmitchell, Aug 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2010
  15. DHK

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    This is not unusual, and it is penetrating "evangelical" churches all over the world, including some Baptists. One Pastor that has perfected this method of "preaching" is David Yonggi Cho in South Korea, pastor of the largest church in the world, albeit Full Gospel. It is called visualization, sometimes imaginative prayer. One is supposed to use all five senses as he creates a vision in his mind where he walks himself through the scene in the garden (for example). In essence you are losing control of your mind and allowing it to be controlled subconsciously.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Joel Osteen implements the same method.

    Here is an article written by David Cloud:
    http://www.wayoflife.org/database/visualization.html
     
    #15 DHK, Aug 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2010
  16. John Toppass

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    Is use of Power Point considered vision casting?
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Is this supported by Scripture?
     
  18. DHK

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    Absolutely not. Any practice where one abandons the use of their mind is condemned by Scripture which tells us to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.
     
  19. Revmitchell

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    Give me a break. The guy in SK is unscriptural. But equating that to the circumstances in the op is just incorrect.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I personally would remain skeptical until I would prove it out through scripture. The Devil can take many forms & is always on the prowl.
     

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