Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

The issue you are really fighting is not unconditional election but rather the absolute Sovereignty of God. Unconditional election has nothing to do with the fall of man or the choice to sin by Adam. When a person is arguing over first cause in regard to sin, they are not dealing with unconditional election but with the Sovereignty of God and its extent. When a person charges God with sin, they are discussing whether God is Sovereign over all things or just some things. Hence, this is an entirely different issue.

If you want to talk about first cause then we need to discuss the subject of God's sovereignty over his creation and its extent.

 

I do not believe the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, which I take was before Adam was created, because the first man Adam might fall but because the first Adam was destined to fall. Then according to purpose through election the following verses come about.

Acts 15:17,,18 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things.Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Also

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

The text uses the word "from" not "before":

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Is God Sovereign? YES! Is Man responsible? YES! How can that be? Deuteronomy 29:29 "the secret things belong to the Lord". Some cannot understand that both issues are in the bible and demand we explain how it all works. God sees how it all works.....we cannot because of our limited understanding and instead of recognizing that we make OP's "like this one" that demand we go to the left or go to the right and that it all has to make scene. Leave room for God......the secret things are not for us.

 

Correct me if I am wrong DHK, but in the reformed view, with "hyper-sensitivity" to the sovereignty of God, does that not according to reformed perspective imply that God "ordains" everything that occurs?

 

:thumbs: Solid logic.

 

Be careful JK, or you might learn something too.

 

God is in fact so very Sovereign that he can create creatures with free agency and still accomplish His desires. That is an awesome God.

 

Does God change the rules in the middle of the game?

 

Sorry Bill, I don't understand the question.

 

God had his rules for "electing" people before he created Adam. Whatever the rules were, did God change them after Adam screwed up? Were Adam and Eve under the same rules before Eve screwed up? If Eve had screwed up and Adam didn't would Eve be in Hell and Adam still alive on earth? I know that "what ifs" don't count but the alternative is to assume facts not in evidence.

 

Same difference as far as this post is concerned. Was the plan of God before Adam was created.

 

Bill, please forgive my "cut and paste" as I am not an accomplished theologian, but the following, provided by Dr. William Lane Craig, makes the most sense to me concerning the doctrine of election.

Second, let's talk about Paul's doctrine of election in Romans 9. I want to share with you a perspective on Paul's teaching that I think you'll find very illuminating and encouraging. Typically, as a result of Reformed theology, we have a tendency to read Paul as narrowing down the scope of God's election to the very select few, and those not so chosen can't complain if God in His sovereignty overlooks them. I think this is a fundamental misreading of the chapter which makes very little sense in the context of Paul's letter.

Earlier in his letter Paul addresses the question of what advantage there is to Jewish identity if one fails to live up to the demands of the law (2. 17-3.21). He says that although being Jewish has great advantages in being the recipients of God's revelatory oracles, nevertheless being Jewish gives you no automatic claim to God's salvation. Instead, Paul asserts the radical and shocking claim that "He is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is of the heart, spiritual and not literal" (2. 28-29).

Paul held that "no human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the law" (3.20); rather "we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" (3. 29). That includes Gentiles as well as Jews. "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one" (3. 29-30).

Do you realize what that meant to Paul's Jewish contemporaries? Gentile "dogs" who have faith in Christ may actually be more Jewish than ethnic Jews and go into the Kingdom while God's chosen people are shut out! Unthinkable! Scandalous!

Paul goes on to support his view by appeal to the example of none less than Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation. Abraham, Paul explains, was pronounced righteous by God before he received circumcision. "The purpose," says Paul, "was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised [i.e., the Gentiles] and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised [note the qualification!] but also follow the example of faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised" (4.11-12).

This is explosive teaching. Paul begins chapter 9 by expressing his profound sorrow that ethnic Jews have missed God's salvation by rejecting their Messiah [= Christ]. But he says it's not as though God's word had failed. Rather, as we have already seen, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants" (9. 6-7). Being ethnically Jewish is not enough; rather one must be a child of the promise—and that, as we've seen, may include Gentiles and exclude Jews.

The problematic, then, with which Paul is wrestling is how God's chosen people the Jews could fail to obtain the promise of salvation while Gentiles, who were regarded by Jews as unclean and execrable, could find salvation instead. Paul's answer is that God is sovereign: He can save whomever He wants, and no one can gainsay God. He has the freedom to have mercy upon whomever He wills, even upon execrable Gentiles, and no one can complain of injustice on God's part.

So—and this is the crucial point—who is it that God has chosen to save? The answer is: those who have faith in Christ Jesus. As Paul writes in Galatians (which is a sort of abbreviated Romans), "So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham" (Gal. 3. 7). Jew or Gentile, it doesn't matter: God has sovereignly chosen to save all those who trust in Christ Jesus for salvation.

That's why Paul can go on in Romans 10 to say, "There is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. For 'everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved'" (10. 12-13). Reformed theology can make no sense at all of this wonderful, universal call to salvation. Whosoever will may come.

Paul's burden, then, in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God's election but to broaden it. He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless of their ethnicity. Election, then, is first and foremost a corporate notion: God has chosen for Himself a people, a corporate entity, and it is up to us by our response of faith whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined to salvation.

 

I forgive ya too.

 

Does God play by your rules? Do you really need an answer to that? How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!

 

Knowing this, will cause me to sleep better tonight.

 

Nice try to jab at the Reformers. I find you fail at boxing God into your viewpoint and try to ingnore text after text about election. God chooses whomever He wills......did you forget God can choose too? John 15:16 You did not choose me.....gonna hop over this like jump rope at recess?

 

A few moments ago, I thought you were going "humble" on me. Guess I was wrong. I quoted the words of WLC, and yes I agree with him. It was no "jab' at reformers, just a statement. As for your reference to John 15:16, unless I am wrong, as I am certain you will point out from your perspective, Jesus is speaking with his disciples.

Yes God can Choose

He chose to create
He chose to love
He chose to redeem

The list of His choices could continue. The better question might be Does God even NEED to choose?