Was Bishop Westcott a secret Romanist?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Forever settled in heaven, Apr 18, 2002.

  1. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    Westcott (and Hort) are sometimes lumped as secret sympathisers of the Roman Catholic Church by King James Onlyers. the damning evidence comes in the form of a letter attributed to Westcott:

    says one King James Onlyer http://www.lifefebc.com/febc/BurnBush/V4N2A6.htm
    "Westcott and Hort were also secret worshippers of Mary. Westcott wrote from France to his fiancée as early as 1847,
    After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill . . .. Fortunately we found the door open. It was very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a "Pieta" the size of life [ie, a Virgin and dead Christ] . . .. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours (Westcott, Life of Westcott, I:81).[5]"

    an interesting detail on this is cited in Gary Hudson, who traces the source of this allegation to an SDA seminary dean Benjamin Wilkinson: http://www.kjvonly.org/gary/eye_opener.htm

    "Wilkinson, page 152: “WESTCOTT writes from France to his fiancée, 1847: ‘After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighboring hill.... Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life (i. e. a Virgin and a dead Christ)....Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours.’”"

    Scott McClare further critiques the SDA-based quote as a Fallacy of Accent at http://www.geocities.com/xenu_rules/ambiguity-accent.html, where he compares the elliptical quote w Westcott's original letter (pasted below).

    ASHBY-DE-LA-ZOUCH,

    2nd Sunday after Epiphany, 1847.

    My dearest Mary - As I fancy that we shall go out to-morrow, I will begin my note now without a longer preface. Yesterday we had a splendid walk to the monastery, going the same road as you went in summer; but now all the treees and hedges are covered with a delicate white frost, and the craggy rocks seemed gigantic in the mist, and all the country looked more lovely and wild and un-British than I have ever before seen it. We went into the chapel, but I cannot say that I was so much pleased with it as before, and the reason was that I did not hear the solemn chant of those unearthly voices whcih seem clearly to speak of watchings and fastings, and habits of endurance and self-control which would be invaluable if society could reap their fruits; as it was, the excessive finery and meanness of the ornaments seemed ill to suit the spiritual worship which we are told should mark the true church. After this we went round the cloisters and into the Refectory, but I felt less than ever to admire their selfish life. After leaving the monastery we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on teh summit of a neighbouring hill, and by a little scrambling we reached it. Fortunately, we found the door open. It is very small , with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a "Piéta" the size of life. The sculpture was painted, and such as group in such a place and at such a time was deeply impressive, I could not help thinking on the fallen grandeur of the Romish Church, or her zeal even in error, on her earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and a purer end, strive to imitate. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours. On leaving, we followed a path across beautiful rocks fringed by firs loaded with hoar-frost, and, passing by many a little deepening glen, came to the road, above which stood a large crucifix. I wish it had been a cross. I wish earnestly we had not suffered superstition to have brought that infamy on the emblem of our religion which persecution never could affix to it. But I am afraid the wish is vain.

    I thought I had spoken to you of the fearful distress in Ireland (and in parts of Scotland too). I am sure you will feel as I do. I have very little money to spare, but if there is any collection I wish you would give five shillings for me, and I will pay you when I return; and let us not only think of the temporal wants of our unfortunate sister isle, but also of her spiritual degradation, which is, I am sure, closely connected with its present miseries.

    ====

    the portions taken out and replaced w ellipses seem like a deliberate attempt to invert what Westcott was trying to communicate.

    if so, Westcott wasn't so enamoured w Romanism after all. his calling it "Romish" shd've been a givaway.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. rsr

    rsr
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    Good post.
     
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    From what I know, Wescott was a member of the "High" Church faction of the Church of England. As such, he would be considered rather "popish" by many of us "ultra-low church" Baptists.
     
  4. DocCas

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    Squire, that is correct. And, it must be noted, both Westcott and Hort were known to have participated in some of the discussions sponsored by "The Oxford Movement" which was made up of Anglican clergymen who wanted to reconcile the Church of England with the Church of Rome. Their colleague John Henry Newman, first honorary fellow of Oxford University (1878), who was made Cardinal by Pope Leo XIII in 1879, may have had some influence on the two. He died in 1880. However, there is little or no evidence linking either Westcott or Hort to the "Oxford Movement" in anything more than a cursory manner, and we know from the facts of history that the Church of England remained separate from the Church of Rome. I suspect this is just another example of "guilt by assoication." However, it cannot be denied that Newman went from "low church" to "high church" Anglican, and then converted to Roman Catholicism in 1845. How much influence he had on Westcott and Hort is unknown, but neither of them ever left the Anglican Church, neither of them ever renounced their Anglican ordiniation, and neither of them ever joined the RCC.

    I suspect Squire's assesment is correct. It was easy in those days to see a high church Anglican and think "Romish." [​IMG]
     
  5. HankD

    HankD
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    Even the KJVO "sainted" John Burgon was a high Anglican and his writings showed it.

    HankD
     
  6. BrianT

    BrianT
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    I wonder what "ultra-low church" Baptists would think of the likes of Lancelot Andrews if they met him. ;)

    Brian
     
  7. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    this plagiarised prevarication on Westcott's past seems to be popular among King James Onlyers. a simple search of the Net reveals the following:

    Robert Barker of Watch.pair.com
    Second Sunday after Epiphany, 1847 -- To His Fiancée -- On Mariolotry
    "After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighboring hill…Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life [i.e., a Virgin and dead Christ]…Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours.’" 80.

    Dr J Khoo in Kept Pure in All Ages
    www.lifefebc.com/resource...ptPure.pdf
    Denial of the Sole Mediatorship of Christ
    Hort acknowledged the worship of Mary is legitimate: “I have been
    persuaded for many years that Mary-worship and ‘Jesus’-worship have
    very much in common in their causes and their results” (Hort, Life, II:50).
    Westcott took delight in Mary-worship and idolatry: “After leaving
    the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we
    discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill. ... Fortunately we found
    the door opened. It is very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a
    screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ]. ... Had
    I been alone I could have knelt there for hours” (Westcott, Life, I:81).

    Dave Blunt
    www.jesus-is-lord.com/hort.htm
    "WE should always be reluctant to engage in ad hominem arguments, i.e. those that concentrate on personalities rather than issues, but the character and professed beliefs of those involved in such vital matters as the text and translation of the Bible cannot be overlooked. It is necessary that those handling the inspired word of God themselves be spiritual men. This is the teaching of Scripture itself (1 Cor. 2:11-16)...
    "1847 Jan., 2nd Sunday after Epiphany - Westcott: "After leaving the monastery we shaped our course to a little oratory...It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a 'Pieta' the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ)...I could not help thinking on the grandeur of the Romish Church, on her zeal even in error, on her earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and a purer end, strive to imitate. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." (Life, Vol.I, p.81)."

    Richard Bostock in www.bmts.com/~bostock/church/kjv3.html
    Also, though Protestants would prefer to think otherwise, Westcott and Hort gave almost every indication of being Catholics under cover. As a case in point, they seemed equally as comfortable worshipping Jesus or Mary. "I have been persuaded for many years (Hort wrote) that Mary-worship and `Jesus'-worship have very much in common in their causes and their results." (Notice, he had held this opinion "many years.") Concerning a statue of Mary and a crucified Christ that Westcott happened on in a remote little chapel, he wrote: "Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." And, to prove that his reverence for Mary, like Hort's was not passing fancy, he also wrote some eighteen years later, "I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears witness."

    Cecil J Carter in www.mag-net.com/~maranath/prof.htm
    The following quotation from “Life of Westcott” reveals that Dr. Lightfoot had more reason to fear that Westcott’s essay on “The La Salette Miracles” might be understood rather than misunderstood. “After leaving the monastery we shaped our course to a little oratory..
    It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a “pieta” the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ). The sculpture was painted, and such a group in such a place and at such a time was deeply impressive. Had I been alone I could have knelt for hours.” (Westcott: Life & Letters, Vol. 1 page 81).

    Nick Goggin, Watchmen Bible Study Group www.biblestudysite.com/adulter.htm
    Also, though Protestants would prefer to think otherwise, Westcott and Hort gave almost every indication of being Catholics under cover. As a case in point, they seemed equally as comfortable worshiping Jesus or Mary. "I have been persuaded for many years (Hort wrote) that Mary-worship and Jesus worship have very much in common in their causes and their results." (Notice, he had held this opinion 'many years.') Concerning a statue of Mary and a crucified Christ that Westcott happened on in a remote little chapel, he wrote: "Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." And, to prove that his reverence for Mary, like Hort's, was no passing fancy, he also wrote some eighteen years latter, "I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears witness." [WBSG Editor's note: Mariolatry is the idolatry of worshiping Mother Mary. Mary + idolatry = Mariolatry]

    Dr J Khoo in Amillennialism Explained, www.lifefebc.com/febc/Bur...bbv4n1.pdf
    Both Westcott and Hort were in favour of the worship of Mary.
    They were both heavily influenced by the “Oxford Movement” of
    Cardinal Newman. Cardinal Newman, whom they greatly admired, was a
    high churchman who led many back into the Roman Catholic Church.
    According to Benjamin Wilkerson: “By the year 1870, so powerful had
    become the influence of the Oxford Movement, that a theological bias in
    favour of Rome was affecting men in high authority. Many of the most
    sacred institutions of Protestant England had been assailed and some of
    them had been completely changed. The attack on the Thirty-nine
    Articles by Tract 90, and the subversion of fundamental Protestant
    doctrines within the Church of England had been so bold and thorough,
    that an attempt to substitute a version which would theologically and
    legally discredit our common Protestant Version would not be a surprise.”
    Westcott and Hort, in their own words, openly confessed their
    adoration of Mary. Westcott wrote from France to his fiancee, 1847:
    “After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory
    which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill. . . .
    Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling
    place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life [ie a Virgin and
    dead Christ]. . . . Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours”
    (Westcott, Life of Westcott, I:81).

    Zander Dell Raines in laymanslook.homestead.com...kjvmod.htm
    From published letters written by Westcott and Hort, either to each other or to family members, the following has been gleaned. On one occasion, Mr. Westcott was near a monastery and, upon going into the chapel, found a pieta. In writing from France to his fiancee in 1847 concerning the event he wrote: "Had I been alone, I could have knelt there for hours." As he was not alone, he had to refrain for to have so done would have revealed just how Roman his beliefs actually were. On November 17, 1865 he wrote to Archbishop Benson remarking, "I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears witness." He stated that the fall of man was an allegory covering a long succession of evolutions. He rejected Genesis 1-3 as a literal history and also denied the fall of man. Westcott felt all women should be named "Mary" so that his wife Sarah, at his request, added "Mary" to her name and he ever so addressed her. Does that sound like a Protestant?

    Russell & Colin Standish, www.champs-of-truth.com/r...N_MBTU.PDF
    Bishop Westcott, the Anglican Bishop of Durham, was no less of Catholic
    persuasion, as his own pen testifies.
    After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little
    oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighboring hill ...
    Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one
    35
    kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a “Pieta” [a statue of the
    Virgin and the dead Christ] the size of life ... Had I been alone I
    could have knelt there for hours. Westcott wrote from France to
    his fiancee, 1847, Life of Westcott, vol 2, 50, quoted in Ibid.
    I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears
    witness. Westcott wrote to Archbishop Benson, November 17,
    1865. Ibid.

    C Seet, lecturer, Far Eastern Bible College
    www.lifefebc.com/febc/Bur...V4N1A5.htm
    Westcott and Hort, in their own words, openly confessed their adoration of Mary. Westcott wrote from France to his fiancee, 1847: "After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill. . . . Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life [i.e., a Virgin and dead Christ]. . . . Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours" (Westcott, Life of Westcott, I:81).

    'Bapticostal' Bill Carrigan of www.acts1711.com/
    Second Sunday after Epiphany, 1847 -- To His Fiancée -- On Mariolotry
    www.acts1711.com/hortwes.htm
    "After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighboring hill…Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life [i.e., a Virgin and dead Christ]…Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours.’" (80)

    Nicole Peoples at www.angelfire.com/mn/disc.../hort.html
    Wescott WOULD NOT HUMBLE HIMSELF to believe the miracles in the Bible, but the apparitions of Mary is quite a different thing. On a visit to a Carmelite monastery, he found a private chapel. Inside behind a screen was a Pieta [a statue of a virgin and a dead Christ]. Wescott said, had he been alone, he could have knelt there for hours.

    LDProphet of Light of Life Ministries, ldprophet.believer.ca/WhyAKJV1611.htm
    (The following contains excerpts from the book " WHICH BIBLE?" by David Otis Fuller DD.)( pages 278 & 279) Westcott writes to his fiancee after visiting a monastery in France and discovering a little oratory on a hill.- "Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a 'Pieta' the size of life [ie. A Virgin and dead Christ] . . . Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours.

    T Tow, Principal of Far Eastern Bible College
    Westcott and Hort were also secret worshippers of Mary. Westcott wrote from France to his fiancée as early as 1847,
    After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill . . .. Fortunately we found the door open. It was very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a "Pieta" the size of life [ie, a Virgin and dead Christ] . . .. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours (Westcott, Life of Westcott, I:81).[5]

    SDA site www.adventist4truth.com/S...-hort.html
    THEIR MARIOLATRY
    (Mariolatry -- worship of the Virgin Mary as carried to an idolatrouls extreme)
    Westcott writes from France to his fiancee, 1847:
    "After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighboring hill . . . Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a 'Pieta' the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ) . . . Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." (5)
     
  8. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    Catholics do worship Mary as co-redemptrix with Christ, and worship the "saints" as well.

    [ May 04, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  9. HankD

    HankD
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    Catholics kneel in the position of prayer and in the posture of worship before an image of Mary, they address her as if she were deity and could hear the other millions of people speaking to her, they make a petition of her or give her praise and say amen. But, according to the RCC theologians, its really not worship "latria" but adoration "hyper-dulia".

    There is a saying; If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, -- guess what?

    HankD

    [ May 07, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  10. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    but how does this relate to my posts?

     
  11. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    FSIH:

    I think you missed reading some posts we had (now deleted) by a catholic interloper. :cool:
     

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