Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Dec 30, 2014.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:

    12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of te world was all for Christ..

    Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Eph 3:9-11

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?

    I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.

    Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.

    Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
    Col 1:18

    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

    This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ.49
     
  2. Don

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    Why are you even looking for such a verse?

    Who said that?
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Was it Gods will for Adam to Sin ? cont

    Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of Adam, then Adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

    This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including Adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..

    This carnal reasoning that puts Jesus Christ as a back plan does not really believe what the scripture clearly teaches, that all things are for Christ, this reasoning however believes that initially all things were for Adam, hence the creature is being exalted over the creator.. Rom 1:25

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For Jesus Christ is clearly identified as the Creator Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Jn 1:3

    3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    So no matter what one may claim by their mouth to believe, if they don't understand that sin/evil being Gods perfect holy will for this world, and that Adam was created very good in order to bring that purpose by his disobedience, then they do not understand the preeminence of Jesus Christ in all things over adam, and have elevated the creature over the creator, which is nothing short of Idolatry !

    Now, was it Gods perfect Holy will for Adam to sin and bring evil into the world in the beginning ? Again the answer is yes, an emphatic yes, no question about it.

    Now there is a principle that is very important here that is often lost sight of, found in Gen 50:20

    But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

    You see here, sin and evil is given its defining purpose and definition, men and devil mean it for evil, but God meant evil and sin for Good, Oh yes, Satan's evil deceiving of the first parents of the election, was meant for evil, but God meant it for Good, in other words, Satan was just doing what Gods eternal purpose in Jesus Christ predetermined for him to do, to bring to pass the salvation purpose of Jesus Christ..

    So that it will bring to pass what we have recorded here in Rev 5:6-14


    6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    And Rev 7:10-12

    10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


    11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    So you who believe it was not Gods will for Adam to sin and bring evil into this world, but that God would have rathered for Adam not to had sin, but that he would have lived perfectly forever and ever without sin, then you are saying that the worship and praises we read of in Rev 5:6-14 and Rev 7:10-12, were not Gods first preference from creation, but a back up plan to adam...

    The devil meant sin for evil, but God meant it for Good, to bring about the salvation / redemption of the people by the blood of the lamb, slain from the foundation of the world..
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    Did you understand the points made in the OP ? Please review them with me so i know you understood them, even if you disagree with them, instead of evading them into a rabbit trail !
     
  5. Don

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    I identified your introductory point. In fact, I quoted you verbatim. I then asked questions specifically related to those points. That's the exact opposite of "evading."

    Your primary point--which you spent the first half of your second post reiterating--is what's called a "straw man" argument. You've indicated that someone has said that God's first choice was for Adam; you then set about repudiating that argument.

    The "straw man" here is that no one has said that. If you believe they have, then you need to quote them, show exactly how what they've said is what you've described. Until you do, your first premise about Adam is invalid.
     
  6. JonC

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    I agree that it was God’s will in terms of His plan and design for Adam to sin. If you mean, however, God’s will in terms of Adam’s sin pleasing God (God’s desire…so to speak) as well then we’d disagree (but I don't think this is what you mean).

    What you bring out in this post is a denial of the common misunderstanding that God created Adam and then devised a plan for saving man after the fall (or even after seeing that Adam would fall). I think that this error comes out of a man-centered view of salvation, but if we look at God's redemptive plan and even Creation as centered on God then I believe we can't help but agree with you that Adam's failure was not outside of God's design or providence.
     
  7. steaver

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    I have to agree with you, and I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. :tongue3:

    I believe where Calvinism gets it wrong is when they wrongly define foreknowledge. We are in God's plan which was before there ever was an Adam. Within God's eternal purpose He has designed Creation incorporating freewill responsibility into that plan. God did not "make" Adam sin, but God certainly "knew" Adam would sin and in fact set Adam up to sin knowing full well that Adam would indeed sin and thus fulfilling his purpose within God's plan.

    These are the things NOBODY on this earth can fully comprehend BECAUSE we all are NOT GOD!!!!!!! Yet many try to insist they have the full complete Divine Enablement to understand Calvinism. The height of arrogance and basically declaring they know what God knows...how this all works out theologically.

    Here's what we actually do know. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God is absolutely true. Whosoever will may come is absolutely true. Our ways are not God's ways. God's mind is out of reach with our lowly minds. Jesus came and made it simple for the humble who just believe Him by faith. Go and preach the Good News to ALL the World. Preach as though Calvinism never came to plague this earth! God has this all under control.............
     
  8. PreachTony

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    The Bible states that, when God created man, He saw that it was "very good." If it was God's Will that Adam sin, yet God called His creation of man "very good," then it's a very short logical leap to say God saw sin as "very good." Yet God spends the majority of the Word and commandments warning us against sin.

    By the way, there is nothing in the verse you quoted there to state that is was God's Will that Adam sin. It merely states that sin and death entered the world because of the actions of one man. It seems like you are pushing a point of view that man has no freedom of will or determination, but is instead only allowed movement with guidance from God. Does man have freedom of will? (Please, answer this. Don't ask me to review the points with you. I've quoted your OP in an attempt to bring clarification to the discussion.)

    Who is "they?"
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    pt

    That has never been denied, so this is a evasive rabbit trail statement ! Do you understand the points I made ? Explain them back to me so i can see ! Thanks !
     
  10. savedbymercy

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    pt

    By the way, there is nothing in the verse i quoted there to state that is was not God's Will that Adam sin.
     
  11. PreachTony

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    So you'll only discuss with us if we go point-by-point through your OP? What happened to you, savedbymercy? You have a post count north of 4000, yet lately you're really acting like a troll. Granted, it's a very involved trolling, but it feels like trolling nonetheless.
     
  12. PreachTony

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    By that logic you can negate large portions of scripture, or apply scripture to points of view that have nothing to do with the scripture. That's a dangerous point of view, savedbymercy.
     
  13. Don

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    I addressed one of her primary points in this thread; was accused of evading and rabbit-trailing; proved how I addressed her point; and am subsequently being ignored.

    There's no desire to discuss scripture here; only a desire to preach to us.
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    The Cross of Christ, the Eternal Purpose of Creation !

    This creation was made to Glorify God, in the totality of His Person, and His Glorious Attributes, and Triunity. The cross of Christ is most vital for the Purpose of all creation, for it exceeds Adam, it exceeds Israel the Nation. In Fact for no other purpose was creation even relevant, for He [Christ] was foreordained before the foundation, He was slain from the foundation.

    1 Cor 1:23

    23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    1 Cor 2:2

    2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    1 Pet 1:20

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Rev 13:8

    8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Gal 6:14

    14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

    So creation and all subsequent entities were subservient to a Eternal Redemptive Purpose, the Cross Eph 3:9-11

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    For this [ Gods Eternal Purpose of the Cross] this must be factored into Paul's preaching of Christ and Him crucified [ 1 Cor 2:2]

    He writes of their Glory 1 Cor 2:6-7

    6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

    7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Paul no doubt had the wisdom of the cross and its Eternal Purpose at Mind.

    An understanding of this can not but establish the Fact that God purposed sin into the World, to accomplish His Eternal Purpose of the cross, Christ and Him crucified.51
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    I want to discuss what I posted, the points I made, but you want to evade them with evasive questions ! Thats rabbit trailing ! Now try discussing my points made, what I posted !
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    Its the same logic you used first may I add !
     
  17. savedbymercy

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    pt

    Why do you think I posted the OP and points therein ? So you can ignore them ?
     
  18. OldRegular

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    This is the same old trash that was pushed endlessly by "sbm" in a previous thread that was mercifully closed!
     
  19. Don

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    I specifically quoted your first point and discussed it!!! How is that "evading"?!? :banghead:

    What point(s) do you want to discuss, if not the one I addressed?!?

    Maybe you need to start with YOUR rules for "discussion," so we all understand what you want us to do!!!
     
    #19 Don, Dec 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2014
  20. savedbymercy

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    don

    Thats a lie !

    Your very first comment was:

    It was a question about a minimal significant statement I made, the main thrust of the OP you evaded !

    Now please honestly read the OP and grasp the overall point being made and then comment on from there ! No diversion tatics !
     
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