Was Job without sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Job 1:8

    What does God mean when he says that Job is blameless? I have seen folks who will use this verse to put forth an argument that Job was sinless. They are then shocked when I point out to him that God rebuked him near the end of the book and then Job repented in ashes and dust. What do you think? Was Job as totally depraved of a sinner as you and I, or was he, as some folks think, without sin?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. Helen

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    Job was not without sin. But he knew his Redeemer lived, and in that faith, just like you and me, was then held blameless. His faith was shown in that he feared God and shunned evil. It was verbally expressed in his confidence in a Redeemer whom he would one day see in the flesh.

    That is the same faith which has always saved and through which each of us who is a believer is held blameless before the Lord.
     
  3. preacher

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    Mabey where they get their idea from is because Job lived before thetime of the giving of the Law.That coupled with him being called "perfect" & "upright" gives them the illusion he was sinnless. But no I agree he wasn't. He had the blood of Adam running through his veins as do we.
    In the KJV in verse 8 the word "perfect" is used again, not blameless, & it doesn't mean that. It means complete, pious, gentle & dear. It can also refer to being undefiled.
    Paul teaches us to be perfect...complete. But he also teaches us to be blameless, in the sense of in this world, that none may find reason to accuse us, or our Lord.
     
  4. Michael52

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    It seems Job himself did not think he was sinless...

    Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

    Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

    Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
    Job 31:34 Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, and went not out of the door?

    Was Job wrong? Was he indeed "perfect" (KJV)? I think God's expressed view of Job shows precedent that in God's view it is possible we can be justified, when in fact, we know we are not "perfect" (ie "blameless"). It is due to the righteousness of Jesus Christ ("the lamb slain from the foudation of the world") that this is possible.

    We recently studied a Sunday school lesson about Job. Many in the class were arguing that Job was sinless because the verse quoted in the OP said so. Unfortunately when one discounts or ignores the rest of the book of Job, it is too easy to make this claim. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Johnv

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    I concur. Job was blameless, but not sinless.
     
  6. prophecynut

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    Has it occurred to anyone that Job is a type of Israel during Jacob's trouble?
     
  7. Paul of Eugene

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    Well, Israel was never "blameless" in the eyes of God's prophets!
     
  8. lindell dunning1

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    Friend,
    Have you ever considered that the Lord meant exactly what He said about Job? Don't you think that the writer of the book of Job would know that the reader would already know that all men were sinners from the womb and therefore didn't find it necessary to elaborate on that issue again? The declaration that the Lord made about Job's character was for that particular moment in time as He and the wicked one were having their dialogue. Job was the Lord's child and one filled with awesome respect of His holiness and power and majesty. How can any believer read verse five of chapter one and not sense the humility and fear that Job had toward God Almighty?
    I know that the Lord Jesus is to be my supreme example in all manner of living and loving,but I would not have any hesitation whatsoever in making Job my next person to mimic. So friend,I am one of "those folks" who sincerely believes that the Divine meant exactly what is stated about Job's character. Not from the womb,but for this particular moment in time.
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Friend,

    I also believe that Job was a man of God. But, no, he was not without sin.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. TaterTot

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    Was he really Jesus? Then, no, he was not without sin. Aint no way.
     
  11. Brother Ian

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    Job was not without sin. While the KJV says Job was perfect, the Hebrew word does not mean without sin.
     
  12. lindell dunning1

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    Dear friends,
    I would hate to go through life harboring faulty religious notions,so I ask you to help me get on the right track.
    I guess that here is where I error. In verse 8,
    Jehovah tells Satan that "there is none like Job on the Earth." An overwhelming statement for sure.
    Then He says"a blameless and upright man,one who fears God and shuns evil." So my problem seems to be that I considered the Lord to know His servant Job fully and that He had boasted greatly of this one of a kind saint who was on the face of the Earth.
    However,knowing that it can't possibly be that way since the consensus runs contrary,I would gladly readjust my thinking if you would reveal just what particular sin Job is harboring in his heart when the Lord made these statements about him. I can't seem to condemn him with any real conviction if I can't identify the sin that he is living in and with.
     
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Friend,

    At the time, I could not tell you the particular sin in any specificity that Job committed. I can tell you that had a sin nature just like you and me. The reason I say this is because of Romans 3. All mankind is totally depraved, and if there is any good in us at all, it is not of us, but from God and his grace. Further, I can tell you that later within the book of Job, you will find God rebuking Job because of his questioning of God and his justice, and then you will finally see Job repenting in ashes and dust. The only perfect man to ever live was Jesus himself.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  14. drfuss

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    Preacher posts:

    "Mabey where they get their idea from is because Job lived before thetime of the giving of the Law.That coupled with him being called "perfect" & "upright" gives them the illusion he was sinnless. But no I agree he wasn't. He had the blood of Adam running through his veins as do we."

    I had heard that Job lived before the law. Is there a scripture to support this? What about Job 9:13 where he makes reference to Rahab as though she was well known? Was this the Rahab of Jericho or another Rahab?

    Concerning being under the law, Job lived in the land of Uz and was probably not a Jew. He would not be under the covanant or law even if he lived after Rahab.
     
  15. OldRegular

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  16. whatever

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    According to his own testimony, Saul of Tarsus was "as to righteousness, under the law blameless". Yet he also testified of his own gross sin and his need for a Savior. I think what Paul meant of his old self is what was meant of Job.
     
  17. EdSutton

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    drfuss, there is a 'debate' among Hebrew translators as to the 'translation' of 'rahab' in Job 9:13, and 26:12 as to whether this is a proper name or is translated properly as proud. The spelling of the Hebrew shows a difference between where we find Rahab, the harlot (KJV) in Joshua, with the appellation affixed and some of these other instances. I tend to suspect, from looking up the words in Strong's, that the KJV 'proud' is more in line with what the writer intended. Some of the latest versions still render it in this way. But I would also add that my Hebrew skills are very aptly described in the Humor forum under the title "HU's on first. Abbot & Costello learn Hebrew.".
    I would suggest that the 'blameless' tag is (or should at least be) similar to that for the qualification for an bishop/elder found in I Tim. 3:2 and Tit. 3:6. (I am a-feared that too many today fall somewhat short of the 'blameless' bit.) Biblically, 'perfect' is usually used, as I uderstand it, in the sense of 'maturity'. I see no reason to find otherwise here.
    As to any specific sins, I would suggest that Job may have had some "I" trouble. We can find this starting in Job 27 and culminating in Job 31, in which chapter he refers to himself over 70 times before saying, in today's vernacular, 'OK! I'll shut up, now!', whereas ol' Elihu blew up with, 'Why did you wait so long? I've had about all of this that I can stomach!!'
    So I tend to agree with the general ideas of most, here.
    Job- 'good guy'? Yep! One of ten individuals, to my knowledge, including The Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible calls 'just'. That's pretty select company, IMO.
    Job- 'sinless'? Not a chance!
    In his grace,
    Ed
     
  18. Craigbythesea

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    Job 1:8

    What does God mean when he says that Job is blameless? I have seen folks who will use this verse to put forth an argument that Job was sinless. They are then shocked when I point out to him that God rebuked him near the end of the book and then Job repented in ashes and dust. What do you think? Was Job as totally depraved of a sinner as you and I, or was he, as some folks think, without sin?

    Joseph Botwinick
    </font>[/QUOTE]If there ever was a man in the Bible who incontrovertibly demonstrated that the doctrine of total depravity is a totally depraved doctrine it was Job! A man who is “upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil" but is totally depraved. What an unimaginably ludicrous contradiction!!! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Must I remind my dear readers that the doctrine of total depravity has it origins in the dark ages of man :eek: rather than in the most precious and most holy word of God?

    God Himself said that Job was blameless, and I prefer to take God at his word rather than take the word of a degenerate fool like Calvin. Yes, the Bible explicitly teaches that Job was without sin, but when he was sorely tested, not being filled with the Holy Spirit of God; he succumbed to temptation, sinned, and was rebuked by God for it.

    :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. johnp.

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    RO 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

    "There is no one righteous, not even one;

    RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,
    no one who seeks God.

    RO 3:12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one."

    RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit."
    "The poison of vipers is on their lips."

    RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

    RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;

    RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

    RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."

    RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

    RO 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    God. :cool:
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    John,

    You beat me to it. [​IMG]

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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