Was Judas "predestined" By God To Betray Jesus?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Did God "force" him to become the Apostle to fulfill scripture, or was Judas "allowed" to freely betray the Lord?
     
  2. humblethinker

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    Are you saying if not "F" then "A"?
     
  3. InTheLight

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    Yes, to both questions.

    Judas thought he was choosing to betray Christ but God caused him to make those choices.
     
  4. revmwc

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    Why focus on Judas and what was or wasn't in or causing him to do what he did. Christ was predtermined to Pay for OUR SINS on the cross, God knew man would need a saviour, God knew Christ would be betrayed and He also knew who would betray Him. The more important issue is that Christ died for us and stirring up issue about what was or it was predetermined at the time we celebrate our Lords ressurection is not what He died for nor What He rose for. The issue is Chrsit crucified, Christ arose, Christ is ascended and sitting at the Fathers right hand, and have you believed on Him. Not did God cause this person to do this or that God Predetermined to send His Son to die for is, that should be the issue.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    Understand the MOST important thing is the fact that Jesus died as my penal substitionary atonement upon the Cross, and that because of Him, I am saved...

    Just was asking if Judas is example to show us how God can be Electing /chosing out someone to fulfill scripture, but that Judas feely chose to "fulfill" his part in ongoing Plan of God..
     
  6. revmwc

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    If you think about the night of the betrayal Jesus said one of you will betray me and each of the 12 asked is it I, each one had it in them to betray Him, Judas acted on it and God knew before hand it would be Judas, God didn't determine it would God knew it would be. That is foreknowledge.
     
  7. revmwc

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    You missed the point why stir up the issue right now? Why not focus on what the Lord did for us in this week leading up to the Ressurection Celebration rather than put a stone of stubbling in others way?
     
  8. InTheLight

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    Only in Matthew and Mark does it say that they asked one by one, and it's not clear if all of the 12 questioned it.

    Matt 26:22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?”

    Mark 14:19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say to Him one by one, “Is it I?” And another said, “Is it I?”


    Also, this verse in Mark is not found in older manuscripts.

    Luke 22: 20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. 21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”
    23 Then they began to question among themselves, which of them it was who would do this thing.

    John 13:21.... “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
    23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
    25 Then, leaning back on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”
    26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.



    Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
     
  9. Tom Butler

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    How about a few scripture verses to chew on?

    Isaiah 14:24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.
    Isaiah 37:26 "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone
    Luke 22:22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him."

    Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

    Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done

    I suppose we all should try to come to some consensus about definitions.

    Do such words and phrases as decree, plan, purpose, set purpose, determinate counsel, ordain, bring to pass, determined, mean the same thing; are they similar; or different (if so,how)?

    Luke 22:22 and Acts 2:23 both appear to demonstrate God's sovereignty and man's responsibility regarding the same act.

    Acts 2:23 suggests that God's decree and his foreknowledge go hand in hand.

    Maybe we ought to consider that God's foreknowledge is based on his decree.

    Maybe we ought to quit trying to make them enemies.

    Maybe we ought to quit cherry-picking--decree here, foreknowledge there.

    Do some of you actually believe that God doesn't decree anything?

    Just askin'
     
    #9 Tom Butler, Apr 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
  10. JesusFan

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    You just hit the proverbial "nail on the head"...

    Think that these verses you quoted do show us that God can and does have both His foreknowledge and His decreeing going at times hand in hand...

    Judas does seem to point out that the Lord elected/chose judas to be the one to betray Christ, but Judas was a willing participate God did not "make him do it" against his will..
     
  11. Robert Snow

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    God didn't cause Judas to betray Christ! Judas betrayed Christ of his own free will. God just used this choice; of course God knew what Judas would do in eternity past.
     
  12. menageriekeeper

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    It's an example of foreknowledge.

    Christ told two men very similar things: Judas would betray him, Peter would deny him.

    Peter thought it couldn't happen. Judas knew full well what was in the works. Christ, in his foreknowledge out them both.

    Either of them could chosen to stop doing what they were doing. Peter could have chosen to remember Christ's words when he first claimed not to know him. Judas could have repented then and there and not gone for the pick up.

    Would either of chosing differently have affected the outcome? No. God had determined what should happen to Christ and that's what would have to happen, even if it hadn't happened right at that moment. But God in His foreknowledge knew the time was ripe.

    The difference between Peter and Judas? Peter ultimately repented and Judas didn't. He was sorry, but he chose suicide rather than repentance.
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Biggest difference between 2 of them is that peter was chosen by God to be an Apostle of Christ, was saved/regenerated
    Judas was an Apostle, but was not chosen /regenerated, but was a sinner
     
  14. revmwc

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    So Christ wasn't God? Is that what you are saying?
     
  15. JesusFan

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    how did we get to THAT question here though?
    of course, Jesus was/is God, Second person of the Godhead, who took on sinless humanity and dwelt among us!
     
  16. revmwc

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    Well you said Judas wasn't chosen of God to be an apostle but Jesus chose all 12. Now Judas wasn't one of the elect because God knew the choices he would make. So Paul became the 12 and final Apostle in due time out of season.
     
  17. Tom Butler

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    May I offer another scripture passage?
    Daniel 4:35
    Following up from my post #9:
    Do I understand how God can be sovereign and man responsible? No.
    Do I understand the connection between God's decree, determinate counsel, etc., and his foreknowledge? No.
    Do I understand how God's does according to his will, no one can stop him, and man still be free? No.

    Years ago, a preacher related that someone had someone ask him, "preacher, how do you resolve the conflict between God's sovereignty and man's will?"

    He replied, "I didn't know they'd ever had a fallin' out."
     
    #17 Tom Butler, Apr 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
  18. convicted1

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    I have been blessed to preach on this very subject before!!! I am a believer that Jesus chose Judas because He knew Judas would. But that's me..........
     
  19. Luke2427

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    God's practice is not to force anybody to do anything. Force indicates driving someone against their will. God tends to not do this.
     
  20. Rippon

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    Charles H.Spurgeon said just about the same thing. Was that the preacher you were referencing?
     

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