Was Mary's Ovary Tube used?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, Nov 26, 2005.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question arise when we translate Mt 1:20
    "to gar en auteh gennehthen ek pneumatos estin Agiou" KJV translated this before the concept of fertilization between eggs and sperms is known to the people. "For that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost"
    My translation is "For the one in her is conceived by Holy Spirit" which coincides with Hebrew 1:5 This day have I begotten thee. I don't want to debate on "this day" issue now, but just focus on whether Mary's egg was used or not. Clearly speaking, no Bible verse support that mary's egg was used, because Yeshuah pre-existed and became another Adam, even though he looked like a son of Joseph, son of Mary, decendant of David. He just came out of the woman (Gal 4:4) Genao verb is very much limitedly used while ginomai verb is used often.
    This issue was not discussable when KJV was launched. But now, in this era, this must be clarified.
    Maria's egg was not suitable to accept the Word of God so that it forms a new life, and it was not designed to be so. If her egg was used and formed a new life, then where is the pre-existed Yeshuah's life gone? Did 2 lives live in one body? Fertilization forms a new brain and its thinking. This was the reason why many believers were rejected when Theotokos was insisted by Catholic, since Nestorius was excommunicated.
    My interpretation is that Holy Spirit gave birth to Yeshuah in the form of Human body and that body stayed in her, Mary. In this aspect Mary is not the biological mother but just a surrogate mother as we see tube babies today. This translation may be very much disappointing to Roman Catholic's who call Maria as Mother of God, who gave birth to Almighty God.
    This is the issue that I want you to discuss, literally and spiritually.

    [ November 26, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Corinthians 15:5157 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Behold, I shew you a mysterie: we shall not all sleepe, but wee shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinckling of an eye, at the last trumpe, (for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortall must put on immortalitie.
    54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O graue, where is thy victorie?

    56 The sting of death is sinne, and the strength of sinne is the law.
    57 But thankes bee to God, which giueth vs the victorie, through our Lord Iesus Christ.

    How much of a persons' body does God need to do this
    miracle, a miracle which shall be reapeted on each of
    those who belong to Messiah Yeshua? Recall that some
    Christians and Messianic Jews have been buried in the
    sea and their body disolved; some have had their bodily
    parts burned and distrubuted in the atmosphere.
    So does God need a DNA sample? A cc* of flesh?
    A whole body?

    *note, cc = cubic centimeter, a measure of volume
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    In order for Jesus to lay claim to the Throne of David, He had to be in direct hereditary line. So yes, He was the biological and genetic son of Mary as far as His incarnation was concerned.

    Keep in mind that God also promised Abraham that the Christ would come from his line. This promise was also made to David. If Jesus were entirely non-human in terms of conception, these promises would have been false.
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I think this discussion is better suited to another forum. It is more a theological question that a questions of versions and translations.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, Mary was the biological mother of Jesus Christ.
     
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does Yeshuah have a Mother? He has only Father!
    If He had to be a Son of Mary in order to become the son of David and son of Abraham, why not to be son of Joseph and fully filled with Holy Spirit? This is why Catholic claims that the blood shed at the Cross was inherited from Mary. The blood was sinless and immaculate, because it was inherited from Immaculate Mary. If Mary was a sinner, then the Blood shed at the Cross was sinful, never good enough to redeem the human sins. We have to stick to the Bible Translation.
    One may translate " The one conceived in her is from Holy Spirit" If the egg of Mary was fertilized, was it fertilized with the sperm transformed from the Word? If the Word could be transformed into a sperm, could it not be transformed into embryo itself? What I translate is that Holy Spirit gave birth to the embryo. If Mary is indeed His Mother, why did Yeshuah call her "Woman!" ? If her egg was fertilized and formed a new person, where is the pre-existing Son of God, who existed before the egg was formed, gone? I had an interesting discussion with a MD who is a devout believer, and he believes that Mary's ovary tube was not used, nor her egg.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    marking
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Recent discoveries show that women's eggs are formed early in the beginning of young age and therefore old women's eggs are old, while men's sperms are formed every day. This means that the eggs of Mary had been already formed before Angel Gabriel notified her the conception. Then sinful nature could be inherited to Jesus. I hope someone expertised in Greek comment on my translation. "For the one in her is conceived by Holy Spirit" (Holy Spirit conceived Jesus and He just stayed in her)
     
  9. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    If that was the case, then Jesus was not human and we are all still lost in our sins.

    But that is not the case.
     
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is God unable to use another dust to form a human body for Jesus? If such body is not human, then using only an egg without a sperm is human? Only partial formation is OK?
    This means :
    1) Fertilization between Joseph's sperm and mary's egg is not OK
    2) Fertilization between Mary's egg and the Word is OK
    3) Formation of Human Embryo without Joseph's and Mary's involvement is not OK.

    Please think about further.
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeshuah mentioned "Before Abraham was, I am" (πριν Αβρααμ γεβεσθαι, εγο ειμι)
    Roman Catholic often forget that Yeshuah worked before His birth since the Creation. Many people think Jesus was sleeping since the Creation until He came into the world.
    Moses believed in Him (Hebrew 11:26)
    Jesus pre-existed before Maria was born. Jesus was the creator of Mary and Mary was created for Jesus. She was like a ceramic bowl created by Jesus, the Creator.

    Please think about Mt 1:20 again.
    "Το γαρ εν αθτη γεννηθεν εκ Πνεθματοσ εστιν Αγιου" The one in her is born by Holy Spirit
     
  12. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,123
    Likes Received:
    319
    Says who Eliyahu? The Church of Rome? Jesus Christ was (Logos)/is HOLY, without sin though He was "made of a woman, made under the law".

    As a human being he was a mortal, subject to death because of Mary's genetics which she passed on to Him.

    KJV Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Using the logic of the Church of Rome then Mary's mother also had to have an "immaculate conception", etc all the way back to Adam.

    The Scripture calls Mary the "mother of Jesus" (and the Scripture cannot be broken):

    KJV John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

    There was no "new person" Eliyahu, the Logos of John 1:1 was enfleshed or incarnated.

    KJV John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh (sarx), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    "Gone"?, In a sense, He (the Logos) went to planet earth in the flesh to (x,y) coordinates, but in His omnipresence He was in heaven as well simultaneously.

    KJV 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    His was received up into glory in His resurrected body via His Ascension.

    Jesus received Abraham's DNA through Mary:

    KJV Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed (zera) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    KJV Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed (sperma) were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed (sperma), which is Christ.

    KJV Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed (sperma) of Abraham.

    HankD
     
  13. Ransom

    Ransom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eliyahu said:

    Clearly speaking, no Bible verse support that mary's egg was used, because Yeshuah pre-existed and became another Adam, even though he looked like a son of Joseph, son of Mary, decendant of David.

    Jesus did not merely appear to be a descendant of David, he truly was one.

    The above is a form of the ancient heresy called Docetism, in which it was said that Jesus was God but not human, except in appearance.
     
  14. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is foolishness, pure and simple. It horrible misrepresentation of the two natures of Christ. The human nature was derived from the flesh of Mary there by cementing him in the lineage of David. While Scripture does not give a detailed account concerning the means of conception, it does not allow for any confusion concerning Jesus' biological ancestors. In addition, since there is only one person of Christ what happens to one nature happens to the other, which Scripture is clear on. Therefore, it is legitimate to say Mary is the Mother of God.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    This is exactly right. Christ's claim to humanity comes through Mary and His claim to deity comes through the Holy Spirit.

    Phil 2 makes it clear that although he existed in the very form of God He takes on the very form of humanity.

    Matt 24 makes the case of "conception" in a human mother. This means that she participated as the reader would expect. Recall that context insists that we ask "what would the clear and obvious meaning be to the primary first order intended audience".

    The concept that "a woman conceived" was very well known and the fact that the detail of the Holy Spirit replacing the role of the Father is explicit.

    If God's intent was to zap a complete human into existence without any trace to humanity - he could have done so without a pregnancy at all -- Adam comes to mind.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    "Jesus" did not exist before being born of a virgin.

    God the SON existed but not as Jesus - not as "the God man" not as the incarnate God -- until born on earth - and only THEN does He take the name JESUS - Yeshuah.

    You confuse God the Son in HIS pre-incarnate form with God the Son as JESUS - His INCARNATE form.

    You are right to claim that God the Son existed and acted from all of eternity past - but you are wrong to think of him as incarnate, Jesus PRIOR to being conceieved and born. The BODY - the exterior - for God the Son on earth was from David's lineage. The EARTH NAME given only to that INCARNATE form of God the Son is Jesus.

    The RC error in calling Mary the Mother of God is that they ignore the difference between PROcreation and INcarnation. God the Son was not procreated. Neither was Jesus.

    All of us are.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. hillclimber

    hillclimber
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, and it was the right one. That's where the Republican party came from.
     
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    So does everybody think that Mary's egg was combined with Word of God? We live in an era where we have to be clear.
    Have you found any verse where Jesus calls Mary as Mother? Disciples called mother of Jesus because people understood that way. However we do not know him by flesh now(2 Cor 5:16)
    Indeed, in my early life in the faith, I claimed that Jesus had only mother, no father. Now I believe Jesus has only Father, no Mother. Mother of God is wrong concept because the word "Mother" contains the meaning of pre-existence. Throughout thousands of years or billions of years(whatever period)Jesus existed and used His own creature to come out of. Mary was used only for a short period, which is like a moment compared to the eternity of His nature.
    Instead of discussion, we have to stick to the bible expression in Mt 1:20 which says" the one in her is born by Holy spirit' which I would paraphrase " the one is born by Holy Spirit and stays in her"
    If He should be a seed of Abraham, why didn't God allow Joseph and Mary give birth to a baby and fill him with Holy Spirit fully? Instead 50% of human being should be used ? 50% is OK 100% is not OK, 0% is not possible?
    Could He not take human flesh without Mary? Women conceive babies even though they are not biological mother but just surrogate mother. Can God not do what human beings do?
    Bible explains "Πνευμα Αγιον επελευσεται επι σε και δθναμισ Υψιστου επισκιασει σοι" "Οτι ουκ αδθνατησει παρα τω Θεω" Nothing is impossible to God and Joseph and Mary become the surrogate parent so that he came as the descendant of Abraham and David. Do the children not call their surrogate mother as Mother? In any case if Mary's egg was used, mary's blood was passed to Jesus and Mary became the Wife of God, which is criticized by Jews. This may become clear at the time when we all stand in front of God. I am confident with my discerning. God used nothing out of Mary. Will it be impossible that God use another dust and form a body for Yesuah who existed before the creation? Nobody has explained how the egg was fertilized with what? with Word directly? or word became a sperm first? or Egg itself became an embryo with Holy Spirit?We can just return to the Bible Mt 1:20 and Heb 1:5.
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    I said Moses believed in Christ (Heb 11:26) Abraham look forward to seeing Jesus and eventually saw Him (John 8:56) Even Genesis 18:1- mentions that Jehova showed up with 2 Angels (Malack, not Elohim) and they ate the food prepared by Abraham. Did they eat the food in the dream of Abraham? No, Abraham dressed a calf and offered the milk and butter. They did eat (18:8). The 2 Angels(Malack) went to the Sodom, leaving Jehova with Abraham. They had the authority to judge Sodom and Gomorra. These 2 Malacks may be pre-incarnate Yeshuah and Holy Spirit because they have the power to judge the nations. Again the Malack shows up to Jacob and says " I am God of Beth-El"Genesis 31:11-13
    Can any angel say that he is God?
    Did any ancient people know the name of Son of God? Proverb 30:4 Who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name? and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?
     

Share This Page

Loading...