Was Peter correct, or was Thomas? - The Trinity

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jesusmyfriend, Jul 13, 2003.

  1. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    Hi everyone,

    I got this from another forum and thought it was really different. I figured it would be a good introduction post.

    Isaiah 45:20-25

    21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.' 24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed, all who were incensed against him. 25 In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory."

    Who do you say Jesus is

    Jesus said to Peter, who do you say that I am and Peter replied,"You are the son of the living God. Years later Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God. Which is correct since we know there is only one God. I mean if Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings does this not mean Jesus is also Lord over the Lord of Hosts from the old testament. And if so would this also make Jesus God the Father?

    We know in Isaiah as well as others it states, "I am the Lord your God, besides me there is no savior" It also states, "Besides me there is no God, I know not of any" So from here we know there can be only one God and one savior. How God chooses to manifest this eternal truth into time is one of the great debates and mysteries of the Gospel.

    Apostle Paul referred to Jesus as the second Adam. In other words the 2nd Adam that would not fail in obedience when tempted and tested by Satan. So Jesus in the likeness of every man passed this test with no more power than Adam had before Adam's fall. Jesus had to pass this test not as God, but as the son of God even though in himself he knew who he was. But Jesus did not pass this test with the nature nonbelievers have, or even current believers have that are redeemed from the curse of the Law.

    Jesus passed this test as the son of God because his flesh was uncorrupted by sin. He also had the anointing and fellowship that Adam had before the first Adam disobeyed God. Not Godhead power mind you, but sonship relationship without sin. (before the fall) So Jesus, even though being God operated with no more power than Adam had as a son before the Adam disobeyed.

    Jesus however did have a relationship with the Holy Spirit that none of us have had even since the cross. We have the seal, the first fruits of the Holy Spirit, but Jesus had it in the fullness unmeasured as the 1st Adam did before the fall. So when the Holy Spirit spoke out of heaven and said "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," it was not a contradiction and would not contradict what Thomas would say years later. Jesus had to pass the test Adam failed at the level, power and relationship the 1st Adam had before the fall. If Jesus took that test with the full authority of the Godhead the devil would have cried foul and of course it wouldn't be a fair test. Almighty God never cheats.

    When you consider that God plays with the powers of the enemy as a bird. Paraphrased from Job, then there could have been no test if Jesus operated as God, for the creation cannot test God in all his power. That's like a Nat fighting with us. Anyway Jesus was the son of God, limiting himself in the flesh so that sonship was real and legal for the purpose of our redemption without causing conflict in the oneness of God.

    But after the resurrection once the blood was applied Jesus made it clear to Thomas and Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord my God." At this point Jesus was operating in his full right as God Almighty, so it was right and true for Thomas to declare what Jesus had hinted at all along through out the Gospel. Have I been with you so long Philip and you still do not know me? If Thomas the super skeptic who always challenged and doubted spoke to Jesus, "My Lord and My God" and then Jesus did not correct him. Well, I think that settles it for me.

    To me the trinity is one God manifesting in three distinct ways for our redemption, our benefit and for relationship. But it was and is and will always be Jesus Christ the Lord God Almighty. Eternity stepped into to time, became a man in the flesh, humbled himself even to point of the cross and bought for us eternity as well. As Jesus spoke to Israel, he also speaks to us. " Hear oh Israel the Lord thy God is one. May we all abide in him and may His Spirit abide in us. Our Father Jesus which reigns in Heaven, Holy is your name. Praise His Holy name.

    This is just my opinion, it is however what I strongly believe concerning this subject, however silly as it may seem to some.

    Silly or not I am convinced it is true. Thank You Jesus and thank you Thomas for being a skeptic, for God works all things to the good for those who love him.


    Isaiah 45:20-25

    21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.' 24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed, all who were incensed against him. 25 In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory."

    http://endtimeprophecy.proboards19.com/index.cgi
     
  2. MEE

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    JMF, is this *your* opinion or is it from the other forum poster?

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  3. Mike McK

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    They were both correct. The two don't contradict one another.

    Modalism is heresy.

    "Nearly every signifigant heresy of the church age begins with a misundrstanding of the nature of Christ." - Walter Martin
     
  4. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    I got this post from Strang's Comunication forum by a poster who got it from Prophecy Zero Hour Christian Forum.

    I thought it was thought provoking when you consider Isaiah 45:20-25. However I wanted some feedback and I'm trying to make up my mind.

    I have concerns though, the reason is because it comes from a forum which is the site forum for the "In defense of Benny Hinn website" and the new Jesus Codes in the English gematria. So I don't know what to think yet. What do you say?

    http://www.geocities.com/bennyhinnpages/benny_hinn.html

    http://www.geocities.com/iamthekey_2000/simple.html
     
  5. Mike McK

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    http://forums.strang.com is where sound doctrine goes to die.

    There are a few posters there who stick up for God's word but, mostly, it's just like Strang's magazine (Charisma), a clearinghouse for false teaching.

    The fact that they're defending Benny Hinn's false teaching should have been your first tip off.

    Seriously, stay away from Hinn and don't pay attention to anything that tries to add to the word of God or provide some new revelation, such as the "Jesus Codes", "Omega Codes", etc.
     
  6. Jesusmyfriend

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    Hey Mike, I found this over at Prophecy Zero Hour, are you the same guy? If your not I apologize, it seems this guy has copied and archives negative comments from about 5 or 6 forums. The url where these copied discussions can be forun is at:

    http://endtimeprophecy.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=TBN

    Re: What they said about Benny Hinn at Strang's Co
    « Reply #1 on: Jun 25th, 2003, 12:08am »

    mikemck
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    Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: In Defense of Benny Hinn Ministries

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We're commanded in scripture to judge teachings in light of scripture and to judge one another according to the fruit we produce. This essay is proof that those admonitions have been long forgotten by some in the church.

    Doesn't matter. Even if he gets it right 1,000 times, getting it wrong just once disqualifies him.

    Quote:

    However, regardless of Benny Hinn's mistakes, I fully endorse the work of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ being done through Benny Hinn Ministries and the Miracle Crusades. Benny Hinn is a son and a servant of Jesus Christ

    Then why does he preach so much false doctrine?

    Quote:
    For those Christians reading now that believe Benny Hinn cannot be of God because of his past mistakes then I ask you this, have you sinned or fallen short in the last seven days from God's point of view? Are your sins, less or greater than Benny Hinn's?

    This isn't about his own personal sin, this is about his false prophecy false and teaching.

    Quote:
    Some of you might say well its different because Benny has given false prophecy, so he is a false prophet. Well, I say Benny Hinn has given erred words of knowledge unintentionally in his zeal. Either way you look at it, whether false prophet, or false words of knowledge, in Jesus' grace it is sin that is forgivable.

    Whether he's forgiven or not isn't the point. The point is that he's a false teacher and false prophet and we're commanded not to have anything to do with him.

    Quote:
    Matt 7:21-23

    (21) Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven. (22) Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power? (23) And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"

    Many Christians that attack Benny Hinn like to use the scripture from Matthew 7 above.

    Yes. It describes him perfectly.

    Quote:
    They like to focus on verse 22 in respect to power, such as casting out demons and the like. This I find a little ridicules since Jesus never once in this scripture denies if they did miracles in his name, he just states he never knew them.

    You're joking, right?

    Quote:
    So technically even if Jesus was going to deny knowing Benny Hinn someday and command him to depart, there is nothing in this scripture that states the miracles were not real.

    So then, when the Anti-Christ does miracles, as the Bible says he will, those miracles will be of God, too?

    I have no doubt that if God can use Balaam's ***, he can use Hinn but that doesn't nulify his false teaching and false prophecies.

    Quote:
    Notice above in verse 39 concerning the Law of Moses. To the mockers and scoffers of Benny Hinn reading today I suggest you read verse 41 above with humbleness and extreme care.

    Actually, that's speaking of mockers and scoffers of God, not Benny Hinn.

    Quote:
    Apostle Paul said the following about false Christianity: "They have a form of religion, but they deny the miracle power of God."

    You need to read that again. It never says "the miracle power of God" and that power has nothing to do with doing miracles.

    Quote:
    David Koresh and Jim Jones deceived by twisting the scriptures. These two deceivers were both very legalistic and controlling type of teachers.

    And yet, when Hinn decieves by twisting the scriptures, you defend him. Curious, isn't it?

    Look, Fred, I know these aren't your words but, really, didn't you at least read the thing before you cut and pasted it?

    http://endtimeprophecy.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=TBN
     
  7. dianetavegia

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    Jesusmyfriend, you can check out the archives to see what those of us on this board think about Benny Hinn's ministry and calling :eek: ...... Or, if you'd like, I'm sure any number of us can provide links about him.

    Diane
     
  8. DanielFive

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    Hey Mike, nice of you to use the same argument as I used in one of the CCM threads. I'm touched. [​IMG]
     
  9. Mike McK

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    Yes, parts of it. But it's been taken way out of context so it's a little confusing.

    I think you'd be better off taking my quotes directly from the Strang forums, where they originally appeared.
     
  10. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    Yes, parts of it. But it's been taken way out of context so it's a little confusing.

    I think you'd be better off taking my quotes directly from the Strang forums, where they originally appeared.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Mike so it was you,

    I could not find the post at Strang's, but here is the direct link to the entire thread at Prophecy Zero hour. It seems in context to me, it has five parts it. Mike is this the thread that was originally at Strang's? Or did he edit out something?

    http://endtimeprophecy.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=TBN&action=display&num=1056513996
     
  11. Mike McK

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    It may still be there but threads about Hinn and Copeland usually don't last long. Steve Strang knows which side his bread's buttered on so as soon as some one questions their teaching, the thread has the life span of a cancer patient at a Peter Poppov crusade.

    I don't know if it was intentionally edited. It looks, for one thing, like a software question.

    In the above thread that you quoted, a couple of questions are deleted which make my answers look out of place and it's difficult to tell which are my words and what I'm responding to.
     
  12. DanielFive

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    Mike

    Please check your PM on Strangs.
     
  13. MEE

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  14. Mike McK

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    I do. For nearly 2000 years, in fact.

    I'm aware of the history surrounding modalist and Sabellianist heresies in the church, thank you.
     
  15. MEE

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    I do. For nearly 2000 years, in fact.

    I'm aware of the history surrounding modalist and Sabellianist heresies in the church, thank you.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well Mike, possibly someone else is interested. You never know who is reading these posts and may be wanting to know the difference.

    Sounds like you may have had a 'bad' Sunday? :(

    Cheer up!............God is good [​IMG]

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  16. 3AngelsMom

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    Yeah,

    What's modalism? :D
     
  17. Mike McK

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    It's aheretical teaching that denies the nature of the Trinity by teaching that God is oneperson occupying three offices, rather than the Biblical model of three distinct persons in the Godhead.
     
  18. MEE

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    It's aheretical teaching that denies the nature of the Trinity by teaching that God is oneperson occupying three offices, rather than the Biblical model of three distinct persons in the Godhead. </font>[/QUOTE]Mike, God is not made up of three persons.

    1 Tim. 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Other than God coming to Earth, through Mary, where do you get that He is made up of three persons?

    BTW, Mike, the belief in One God isn't heresy. Now if one cuts Him up into three pieces or persons, that's heresy! ;)

    MEE [​IMG]
     

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