Was the Bush Administration Fascist?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JustChristian, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. JustChristian

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    Just like the Reichstag fire which Hitler used to get into power, Bush had 9/11. Years before hand his adviser, Paul Wolfowitz, had written that it would take "a New Pearl Harbor" for the American people to support the invasion of Iraq. Well, they got it. How convenient. When the Taliban offered to turn bin Laden over to a neutral country for trial, Bush refused. Why? Because he didn't want the truth to come out. On trumped up charges Bush invaded Iraq who he later conceded had nothing to do with 9/11. We'll be lucky if we can get through the worst presidency in history with some of nour constitutional rights intact.
     
  2. Bible-boy

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    No evidence and no sources proveded. Just wild claims. Likewise, you have already posted this exact same nonsense in another thread where you and debated the war in Iraq. I refuted it point by point there and you never even attempted to counter my refutation.

    Hitler was a Nazi not a fascist. The "Duce" in Italy was a fascist.
     
  3. billwald

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    Fascism is an economic system where the country is run for the sake of large privately owned companies. Isn't that what we have?
     
  4. Bible-boy

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    Sorry, but your definition is incorrect.

     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    More or less. However, there is a little more to it than that. In fascist states there is also an emphasis on nationalism, militarism, domestic spying, and the "cult of the Leader" ("unitary executive" is the current euphemism)--elements of which can all be found in the current neocon regime. (Of course all those aforementioned elements converge to serve the interests of the plutocrats who really run things--corporations and the state)
     
  6. JustChristian

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    I believe I said Fascist and not Nazi. What kind of evidence do you want? A copy of the two Patriot Acts?
     
  7. just-want-peace

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    You know, it must be a terrible burden to be addicted with BDS. (And I thought I despised Clinton - I didn't realize how tame my feeling for him were - yes I still despise him, but I don't constantly post derogatory comments about him.)

    As much as these people annoy me, I can't help but have a touch of pity for them!
     
  8. JustChristian

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    Sorry but you were wrong. Hitler was a Fascist.

    Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist political ideology and mass movement that is concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence, and which seeks to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.[1][2][3][4][5]

    Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, militarism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, populism, collectivism, statism, social interventionism, and economic planning. In addition, many scholars see fascism as opposing liberalism, conservatism and communism.[6][2][1][7][8][9][10]

    Fascist governments nationalized key industries and made massive state investments. They also introduced price controls, wage controls and other types of Soviet-style economic planning measures.[11] Property rights and private initiative were contingent upon service to the state.[12].[13] Fascists promoted their ideology as a "third way" between capitalism and Marxian socialism.[14]

    Fascists in Germany and Italy claimed that they opposed reactionaries, and that they were actually revolutionary political movements that fused with conservative social values. Unlike reactionary political entities, fascists supported revolutionary politics, and fascists like Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler used leftist political terms such as "proletariat" and "bourgeois" to describe society.

    Unlike typical reactionary political forces in Europe at the time, fascists did not demonstrate fondness with having monarchies and pushed them into figurehead positions. Even in Italy where Mussolini ruled alongside the King, relations between the Fascist regime and the monarchy at times grew tense and the Fascist regime made attempts to diminish and sideline the monarchy.
     
  9. Bible-boy

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    Let me guess. Wiki right?
     
  10. JustChristian

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    What's your source?
     
  11. LadyEagle

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    BB, please provide your source for post #8. Thanks, LE.
     
  12. Bible-boy

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    Okay, I'll grant that Hitler embraced fascism. However, his Nazi Germany was not a mirror image of the classic Fascist State in Italy.



    But all this is really a minor point and does not effect the discussion of the subject of the OP.
     
  13. Bible-boy

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    It is a cut and paste of the Fiscism page at Wikipedia.
     
  14. Bible-boy

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    I want you to back your claims with evidence and sources for each main point you are attempting to make. Regarding the Patriot Act, just because you claim that it has somehow "robbed" us of our liberty does not make it so. Therefore, I'd like to see you provide a U.S. Federal Court transcript where a Federal Judge declared what you are saying to be the case regarding the Patriot Act.
     
  15. Bible-boy

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    I note that the Subject of this thread is "Was the Bush Administration Fascist?"

    If you are going to attempt to make the claim that it was please define what you mean by "Fascist" and then provide evidence and sources that show that the Bush Administration fits that definition.

    For example, here is a good basic definition of Fascism:

     
  16. poncho

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    What is fascism? Corporatism. The merger of state and corporate power.

    Fascist motto...Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato, "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State." SOURCE.

    Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity. It is opposed to classical liberalism which arose as a reaction to absolutism and exhausted its historical function when the State became the expression of the conscience and will of the people. Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual; SOURCE.

    Anti-individualistic?

    What is individualism?

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    SOURCE.

    Fascism (corporatism) then is collectivist.

    What is collectivism?

    A person's moral worth is judged by how much he sacrifices himself to the group. [Under collectivism] the more emergencies (and victims) the better, because they provide more opportunity for "virtue." SOURCE

    What do fascists believe?

    Fascists believe that all actions should be done for the good of the state (rather than classical liberalism, which focuses on the good of the individual). This definition expands to economic policy as well, with government and business working together for this end - this is called "corporatism." Modern "public-private partnerships" have their roots in corporatism, though they are not necessarily oppressive.

    SOURCE.

    What are some of the characteristics of fascism?

    Characteristics of fascism include a belief that the state is more important than the individual; a leaning towards authoritarian government and centralized economic planning; an emphasis on nationalism and national traditions; militarism; information control and censorship; media propagation of the Great Leader which demonizes and trivializes his critics; and a rejection of both free enterprise and Social democracy in favor of corporatist economic policies.

    Fascist regimes have often concentrated on a "scapegoat" to push their agendas, such as the Jewish people in World War II.

    The fourteen characteristics of fascism also include rampant cronyism and corruption, as well as rigged elections and a general disdain for human rights.

    SOURCE.

    That's all I got time for tonight. I'll compare all this side by side with the rhetoric and actions of the Bush neocon regime this weekend sometime. I might even dig up some choice quotes from some of the regime's loyal followers among the BB membership.

    That should make for a fun and spirited discussion eh? Until then Hail Victory! :)
     
    #16 poncho, Sep 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2008
  17. poncho

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    So I sat down at the computer today and started cruising the net for examples of rhetoric and actions of the Bush administration to compare to fascism/coporatism. WoW! There so many to choose from! This may take longer than I first imagined. Might take me till next weekend just to sort through it all.

    I should be able to bring it on back here to this thread by then...I hope. :wavey:
     
    #17 poncho, Sep 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2008
  18. Crabtownboy

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    I would not say that Bush is a Fascist or a Nazi or a Communist or a Socialist. I would say that he would like dictatorial powers. Why? Because he really believes he is right and can make no mistakes ... and cannot admit to one if one is made. I can see him leaning over the table and saying to Putin, "Man, you know how to run a country." Now this is my opinion, but I remember Bush did say:

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0012/18/nd.01.html

    Now don't jump on me for twisting words ... I didn't say it ... it is a direct quote from G. Bush's own mouth.
     
  19. JustChristian

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    This is a standard definition. The Encyclopedia Britannica would say basically the same thing. I'll take a look.
     
  20. poncho

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    Here's a list of the characteristics of fascism taken from my above post.

    1. Merger of corporate and government power.

    2. Belief that the state is more important than the individual.

    3. Leaning towards authoritarian government.

    4. Centralized economic planning.

    5. Emphasis on nationalism and national traditions.

    6. Militarism.

    7. Information control and censorship.

    8. Media propagation of the Great Leader.

    9. Demonizing and trivializing of critics.

    10. Rejection of free enterprise in favor of corporatist economic policies.

    11. Concentrating on scapegoats.

    12. Rampant cronyism.

    13. Rigged elections.

    14. General disdain for human rights.


    Well what do you know there really is 14 characteristics of fascism.

    Anyway that's the list I'll be comparing the Bush/Cheney administration's rhetoric and actions too. I'll also be looking into the media and it's talking heads, the books, writings, policy papers and documents of leading neconservatives and the views and rhetoric of the administration's supporters themselves. And to be "fair and balanced" I'll be including and comparing the democrat's rhetoric and actions to "the list" also.

    I think this may prove interesting.

    While I'm busy working on putting all this together this week does anyone have any suggestions or something you'd like to add? Like I said there is whole lot of information and data to sort through so this may take a while...and quite a few pages. So if anyone has any free time this week and are willing to pitch in digging up info and whatnot you think might be helpful don't be shy...go for it!

    Now where did I put that notebook? :)
     

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