Was The Church You Attend Built by Jesus?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Feb 22, 2011.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
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    Jesus said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

    Was Jesus speaking of the church you attend, or only a specific local assembly?

    If it was about a local assembly, how do you know if Jesus' promise of life extends to your church?
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    When Jesus said those words (Matt 16:18) he said them directly to the members of the only church in existence.

    Two chapters later, he teaches these same members about church discipline.

    In Revelation, Jesus tells John to write to the pastors of seven churches--churches he was intimately familiar with. He spoke to them in the same way a father speaks to his children. Encouraging and complimenting where appropriate, warning when needed.

    Jesus is the head of every true New Testament congregation. Empowered by the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. J.D.

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    So you're saying that the church Jesus spoke of was the one at Jerusalem?
     
  4. Robert Snow

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    Jesus was speaking about the universal church.
     
  5. DHK

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    an impossible task--an assembly that cannot assemble??
     
  6. DHK

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    Please define a church? Is it a building?
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    The one to whom Jesus spoke in Matthew 16:18 and in Matthew 18 is the one he established during his earthly ministry. The material of that first church was the Twelve. It was a traveling church at first, eventually settling in Jerusalem. It was in existence before the day of Pentecost, and in fact had assembled ten days previously.

    The reason they assembled in that upper room was that Jesus himself had told the Eleven not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the Holy Spirit which Jesus had promised. During that time, this group, which included his mother Mary, other women, and Jesus' brothers, prayed a lot, heard Peter preach, held a business meeting.

    Sounds churchy to me.
     
    #7 Tom Butler, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
  8. Robert Snow

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    Ah yes, the Landmark standard remark. I disagree with it. There is a universal church, made up of all who come to Christ.
     
  9. DHK

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    Let's get this clear from the beginning.
    I am not a Landmarkist, never have been, never have been in a church building designated as one, and never even heard of them until long after I firmly held to this belief that we are now discussing. With that in mind you don't have to white-wash me or brand me with some other group. OK?

    Secondly, you can disagree all you want. You can also call blue, red. But blue will be blue now matter how much you jump up and down and call it red. It won't change it into red just because you say so. Wrong opinions are still wrong, even if they are held sincerely wrong.

    Here is the same verse translated more accurately by Darby:
    And *I* also, I say unto thee that *thou* art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

    Nowhere in the Bible do we see universal in the context of assembly (i.e. church). Why would you want to add to the Bible "universal" in front of the word "assembly"? That is adding to the Word of God, is it not?
    An assembly that cannot be assembled is a contradiction of terms. But you cannot get past this concept. It is not in the Bible.

    Ekklesia means assembly. It has no nebulous non-functional meaning as universal church. It just isn't there, and no one on this forum has been able to demonstrate from the Scripture that it exists.
     
  10. Winman

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    If there is only one church, then what are all these verses speaking of?

    Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

    Acts 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

    Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

    Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

    Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

    1 Cor 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

    1 Cor 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

    1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
    34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    1 Cor 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

    There are many more verses besides these, but if this doesn't convince you that a church is a local called out assembly, it will not matter.
     
    #10 Winman, Feb 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2011
  11. Tom Butler

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    But he was speaking to a real, live group of men. They went on real, live mission trips, baptized real, live converts; were given the Lord's Supper by Jesus (where they assembled); heard the Head of that church preach for three years, teach them for three years, and came to believe that he was the Creator of the Universe.

    One of the men who heard him was the church treasurer.

    And his instruction about discipline was given to a group, so they'd know how to deal with problems in the church--real, live problems in a real, live, assembled congregation.

    To my knowledge, the universal church has never administered church discipline--thus is in disobedience. It would have plenty of justification, since a large number of the members of the universal church believe and teach heresy and preach a false gospel.
     
  12. Robert Snow

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    I can be a member of a group and never meet with that group. If you don't believe me, check with the last gym I joined.
     
  13. Winman

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    Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    It would be pretty difficult for a universal church to obey this command, don't you think?
     
  14. DHK

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    Did you pay your fees???

    If you are not a functioning member of the ekklesia, you are not a useful member and ought to look for a place where you can function, or where you can be more than a piece of dead wood.
     
  15. Darrenss1

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    Why do you think there must be one or the other and not both? A Universal Church and a Local Visible Church resting in different locations?

    How many Bodies of Christ are there?

    Darren
     
  16. DHK

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    As many bodies as there are believers. He dwells in you and he dwells in me, and in Amy, and Tom, etc. We can accept that concept, and yet you have a difficulty accepting the concept that Christ can be the head of every Bible-believing church. Why would that be?

    An assembly assembles. Ekklesia (the Greek word translated church) simply means assembly. There is no such thing as a universal assembly.
     
  17. Tom Butler

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    In a previous post, someone said that the universal church carries out the Great Commission and other ministries through the local church.

    One must be careful making such statements. For instance, one might ask if the local church and the universal church have different commissions from the Lord. And, if they are the same, why does the universal church need the local church to perform duplicate functions? And if the local church can do the job, what do we need the U-church for?

    And, if they are different, why can't the universal church perform its commission on its own?

    I tell you, I believe there are saved Methodists, even Catholics, etc., but I surely don't want them doing my baptizing for me?

    And I definitely don't want the RC's doing personal soul-winning on my behalf.

    There are way too many heretics in the universal church.
     
  18. The Archangel

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    Unfortunately, you are very wrong, and it is provable with grammar.

    If you look at Acts 9:31 you will see an interesting usage of "Church:"
    So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.
    Here you have a grammatical situation where one single church (the word is singular) is referred to being in Judea, Galilee, and Samaria all at the same time. Now, if Paul had intended to address three separate churches, the word for church would have been plural. In fact, we see this plural use in Acts 15:41--And he went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches. Here are two separate churches referred to with the plural.

    It is obvious that Paul is referring to one church that is in three separate and disparate locations.

    If you look at Acts 20:28 (where Paul is speaking to the Elders of the church in Ephesus) you will see another interesting use:
    Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood
    This passage is particularly interesting and makes several important points.

    1. Why is the Ephesian church called "the church of God?" I mean, are we to assume that the church in Antioch, for example, is illegitimate?

    2. We see that God obtained the church with His own blood. Are we to assume that He only purchased the church at Ephesus and the church in Jerusalem is somehow unredeemed?

    Of course the meaning of εκκλησια is more related to the context of a particular passage. There are cases where εκκλησια means an individual (or local) church. There are cases where εκκλησια means all the churches (or universal church).

    There are both local churches and a universal church. After all, there is a reason that local churches are referred to as "The church at __________ ."

    What is more, in dealing with application of the Epistles to us today, we seek to read and apply 1 Corinthians, for example, to us today. But, since Paul addresses the letter to "the church of God that is in Corinth" we show that we believe that Paul's letter is not only for the local Corinthian church, but the church universal--of all places and times.

    If you are to be consistent--since you deny the universal church--you should reject any and all portions of scripture that are addressed to any local church, since that particular local church is an entity to itself. Of course, you don't do that. So, what you deny with your words you affirm with your actions.

    The Archangel
     
  19. Darrenss1

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    And you just assumed that? I don't have any problems, Christ is the head of THE church, agreed.

    I disagree with your greek translation, it does not ONLY mean assembly.

    Darren
     
  20. quantumfaith

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    Now thats funny. :) I do tend to agree with you Robert, I am under the impression that the church in the NT is both local and "universal".
     

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