Was there death already before Adam?

No.

But I believe sin is wrong even if nobody does it.

I believe Lucifer indulged in many sins (starting with pride) prior to the fall of man and he caused 1/3 of the angels to fall with him. He was one of the covering Cherubs so he held high position among the Angels. Easy to carry them with him.

 

Is that why we ride the horse and eat the cow?

That verse says, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Satan is a spirit and is prevailing in the spiritual world. Though he is lord of that world, he is not final. Jesus rebuked many spirits and said we could too.

 

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

Okay here are the verses we are speaking of. The earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep. That is our condition as spritually dead individuals. We are in the darkness.

The Spirit of God moves. And eternal salvation can not happen unless the Spirit draws the person.

The God speaks (Word of God - Christ) based on the finished work of Christ, who is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world and light becomes.

That's exactly what happens to a person when they are saved. They hear the Word of God and then the spirit is made alive (brought into the light).

Then the light is separated from the darkness, which is the picture of the spirit being separated from the soul (Hebrews 4:12), because what fellowship does light and darkness have?

We don't lose the sin nature, but the parts of us that are still in darkness are separated from our saved spirit.

Notice that God calls the light good, but does not say that of the darkness. Our spirit is now in good shape, while our body and soul are still in the darkness.

That's why there is a war between our flesh and the Spirit.

But when we see this type of eternal salvation it totally eliminates all the garbage that we see people adding to eternal salvation now, because they don't go to the OT and study the types.

Salvation is the Lord's. The only thing man can do is trust in what has been done on His behalf. That's it and nothing else!

 

You have missed what I have tried to say. Satan does not have the final say in what goes on here as God is ultimately Ruler over the entire universe. However He placed Satan in rulership over this earth as the morning star over this planet and he still maintains he rule although he is a rebel ruler.

And while we my ride a horse and eat crow as you say we don't have complete dominion over the animals any more either, but our rule was to be more than just rule over the animals.

If you would like further reference material that is able to go into much more Scriptural detail just let me know.

 

It's not really an either/or; it's a both.

In the beginning, God who is eternal (without beginning or ending and existing outside of time), created everything. But, the earth became waste and void, through some great catastrophe. Then, the second part of Genesis 1:2 kicks in.

Genesis 1:1 is generally accepted to be the beginning of everything; the ultimate beginning. It does not state how God created the universe, only that “in the beginning, God” (God is eternal) and that He created. There are many who believe that it is only the beginning in reference to man, but the text does not support that. It doesn’t exactly deny it, but the wording most likely represents the ultimate beginning.

The Hebrew word אָרָ. does not necessarily mean that it was created out of nothing, but most likely, that is the intent. It is not, however, limited to mean absolute creation.

ְו is a very important thing to look at. The “waw” can be either conjunctive or disjunctive, depending upon the conditional clauses involved and their relationship to verse 1. What are the three conditional clauses?

1. The earth was without form and void
2. and darkness was upon the face of the deep
3. and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Are these three clauses connected inseparably to verse 1? If yes, and verse 1 is the absolute beginning, then verse 2 would have to describe how God created them (without form and void). This would mean that the beginning of verse 2 would describe the condition of the earth at the time of the action in verse 1. Then, the six subsequent days would describe how God completed the creation, step by step.

So, if ְו is conjunctive, then either God created something imperfect or verse 1 does not describe an absolute beginning. God cannot be perfect and create something imperfect. James 3:11 asks the rhetorical question “Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?”

Therefore, verse 2 should begin with “but”, not “and”. As a matter of fact, if you look in the Septuagint, you will find that the Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew to Greek used the word “but”, just as it is used in Matthew 3:7. When used in the disjunctive sense, Genesis 1:2 is not inseparably connected to verse 1: A separation would exist. Verse 1 would be the absolute beginning and verse 2 begins events occurring later. Creation is perfect; six days to restore. (It should be noted here that verse 1 could be a summary declaration of creation followed by a revelation of “how”, but this would not properly follow Hebrew linguistics.)

The expression .הֹבָו .הֹת is translated here as “without form and void”, but elsewhere is used to describe a state as being the result of catastrophe. .הֹ., by itself (translated “without form”) means “in vain”. Isaiah 45:18 says specifically, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD ; and there is none else.” He specifically says that He did not create it in such a state.

If we look at the first circumstantial clause in verse 2, the word translated “was” is most appropriately “became”. Not exactly “became”, but more appropriately “it was not this way, then it was”. Even the days “became” (vv 5,8,13,19,23,31) and at the end of the verses, it is, “and it became so”.

If you look at Job 38:4, His angels were present at the creation. The earth was created after the angels, but before the rebellion of Satan. Isaiah 14:12 says, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” Satan was not created evil; he became evil.

Satan wants a world that is religious; it’s conducive to his power now and that of the anti-Christ later. That’s why you see so many false religions: Astrology, palmistry, numerology, etc. Satan does not want to banish religion, he wants to draw people away from Christianity.

Religion is man reaching for God; Christianity is God reaching man.

Scriptures will only support one position:

1. The absolute beginning is in Genesis 1:1
2. The ruin of creation is described in Genesis 1:2a
3. Restoration is performed through Divine intervention over 6 days in Genesis 1:2b-25
4. Rest

To be scripturally sound, absolute creation could not have taken place in six days; only the recreation or restoration could have. The Bible does not tell us how long the creation of the universe took, but the creation of the world as we know it took place in six literal days, in my opinion. (The text does not rule out the day-age theory, and some other theories).

Genesis 1 is Hebrew poetry at its finest, comprising several layers, which can best be expressed in a chiastic structure, based upon the Hebrew:

1. 1:1 He (God) Created
2. 1:1 God
3. 1:1 Heavens and Earth
X. 1:2 - 31 Forming and Filling of the Earth
3’. 2:1 Heavens and Earth
2’. 2:2 God
1’. 2:3 He (God) had made

To boil it down, the seven days of creation can be broken down as follows.

1. First, in Genesis 1:1, it speaks of the creation of everything.
2. Then, in 1:3 – 1:13 has to do with forming. Days 1 – 3 use verbs of formation.
3. 1:14 – 1:31 has to do with filling. Days 4 – 6 use verbs of filling.
4. Then, it is announced that he finished them.

To summarize, I think the creation account in Genesis 1 is accurate and true. However, different interpretations by man that don’t line up with Scripture have muddied the water. The text does not give specifics, but it makes it clear that God is sovereign.

 

You will find how Lucifer fell in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28. He was lifted up and proud. In his pride he thought that he could become God. His sin was pride though God created him in perfection.
Likewise God created Adam and Eve in perfection. We find them in the Garden of Eden in a state of innoncence, and untainted by any sin nature. They had not met Lucifer (Satan) as of yet, nor had they been tempted by sin. They knew only good. God looked upon His creation and all was very good. To say that there was evil in God's creation is close to blasphemy for it is attributing evil to God. That is what the Pharisees did to Christ when they committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which could not be forgiven. They attributed His works that He did to Satan. Similarly you are implying here that the works of God are of evil, or that there is evil in them. I do not serve an evil God. Adam and Eve knew no evil, until they sinned. As I previously said:
"When God created Adam and Eve they had no knowledge of evil, neither was there evil until they rebelled against God. Even Paul teaches the same thing in Romans 7." Study Romans 7. No need to quarrel with the Word of God.

Yes it does. I live straight north of the state of Montana. It used to be that there was no law concerning the speed limits on the interstates in Montana. You could go as fast you wanted. It was impossible to get a speeding ticket. Where there is no law there is no sin. Where there was no law against speeding, there was no tickets for speeding. It wasn't against the law. It wasn't wrong. (Now it is).
1John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law.
There must be law before there is sin.
Secondly there must be a breaking of the law before sin is committed and before the presence of evil enters.
As long as Adam and Eve obeyed God, and did not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (and we have no idea how long that was), there was no sin, no evil present in the garden. They lived in a state of innocence without evil; without sin.

Romans 5:13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
--From Adam to Moses sin was in the world. Through Moses the law came. Even without the law (of Moses) there was sin. However vs.12 is clear--sin is not imputed when there is no law.
--Death has reigned from Adam to Moses. Why? The law has been broken.

A half truth is as good as a lie. They would not be "as gods" as Satan promised. They would know good from evil. But the only reason that they would know good from evil was because they had not experienced evil beforehand. As soon as they disobeyed God's command their eyes were opened to the sin of disobedience that they had just committed, and evil had just entered the world.

Study Henry Morris's, "The Genesis Record," and
Morris and Whitcomb "The Genesis Flood."
--You will find plenty of evidence there giving good explanations about what happened to the dinosaurs.

Verse one is simply a summary statement of God's entire creation. It is like the opening statement of a paragraph. He then begins to elaborate on that statement and tells specifically what He does. It is quite apparent that He doesn't create the "heavens" until the fourth day when he specifically mentions the "sun, moon and stars." I can't see what the problem is. He says that he creates the universe on the fourth day. Before that time He spends His time concentrating on the earth itself.

I can agree with that.
DHK

 

There are three heavens that are spoken of in the Bible:
1. the atmosphere,
2. the universe,
3. God's abode.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
--The firmament spoken of here is the space or atmosphere that was originally placed between to layers of water--the waters or oceans on the earth, and a layer of water that surrounded the earth well above the atmosphere. The atmosphere is referred to as the firmament.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:16-17 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
--Verses 16 and 17 do not refer to the same firmament (i.e., the atmosphere). This firmament (space) refers to the universe. It is when God created the universe. Here is where he created the sun and moon, and he made the stars also. "He set them in the firmament of the heaven." This has not yet been mentioined. He must have created this "heaven" at this time also. It is not referring to the atmosphere but that which is much farther outside of our atmosphere where the sun, moon, and stars are. Thus the universe was created on the fourth day.

Since there is only one creation, and it was done all in six days, I believe that the angels (along with Lucifer) were created within these six days also. It makes no mention of their creation, but they are created beings.
DHK

 

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

All the law was in effect at the time of Christ. He was tempted in every way as we are.
By your own logic are you calling him a sinner and evil?
Was stealing inherent in Christ just because the command not to, was present? Was evil thus present in Christ? Of course not.

Neither was there any sin or evil in the Garden of Eden, neither in Adam and Eve when God put them in the garden. They knew not evil until they sinned.
DHK

 

Correct, satan had sinned (past tense) and was already considered evil.

Ok, do you agree GOD is the only creator? Is 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." GOD said he created evil, not me.

My next point is satan was in the garden before the fall of man. We know this because satan tempted Eve prior to her partaking of the fruit. If satan was evil and if satan was in the garden then there was evil in the garden before the fall of man. Man is what fell in the garden?

No, you are attrbuting his work to satan. I am the one saying evil was there before the fall of man.

Sorry to be the one to break the news, but again, IS 45:7 is GOD saying he created evil. I was just repeating what he said.

This part I agree with, they had no knowledge of evil.

Again, satan had fell. Satan was evil because he had fallen. Satan was in the garden before the fall because he was tempting Eve. There was evil in the garden before the fall of man.

7th Chpt of Romans is Paul explaining how the law can't deliver man from sin. Not sure what support you think it has for this discussion?

I agree, you can't break a law that does not exist.

Again, this is where I disagree,

Wrong, satan was in the garden.

Correct, sin is not imputed when there is no law. There was a law. GOD told Adam not to eat of the tree. That was the law. The law came with a penalty. You obey you are good, you disobey you are evil. Evil was there, Adam just hadn't become it yet. When GOD made the good for obeying he made the evil for disobedience or there really was no good.

You choose to believe that way. You would disgard a man's entire sermin because he got one point wrong? I believe what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. The part of what satan said that I quoted was correct. I know this because GOD himself said in Gen 3:22, man has become as one of us, to know good and evil".

I said no biblical proof. I have hypothesis but that doesn't make them right.

 

The Scriptures say "God Created Evil" and to say otherwise is to deny the Scriptures!

I never said anything about both good and evil had to be in the Lord. I am talking about the Commandment "steal".
Because Adam and Eve knew not evil until the fall, they did know that God had commanded them "not" to eat of the Tree of knowledge.
You either, are not taking my question serious or just plain do not want to answer it,Well regardless of what any says when God said if you do not steal that is good. At that very moment in time or when and where it happened that God said to not steal is good, at that very moment it became evil to steal. peace:thumbs:

 

The 4 beasts of Rev 4 are not created in Genesis 1-2:3. Neither the myriads upon myriads in Daniel 7, neither the Angels, neither the "sons of God" mentioned in Job1 and Job 2.

There are exactly 2 forms of intelligent life created - in Genesis 1-2:3 - Adam and Eve. And then day 7 of that week God "made" His Holy day. Hence we have a 7 day week not a 6 day week.

And there are exactly 2 lights created on day 4. The sun and the moon.

No galaxies.

No other solar systems with even greater suns.

No other forms of intelligent life.

So it is not surprising that Satan was already there in the tree waiting for Eve.

(BTW - Genesis 1-6 also does not describe the fall of Lucifer to become Satan or the way that he cause 1/3 of the angels to join him. All that happened before the creation of Adam or this World).

So while "evil" existed (Satan and his angels -- all demons) it was not allowed to polute this world or any other in the universe. Satan was expelled from heaven AND could not claim earth.

God's world was "perfect" sinless, holy, and in perfect harmony with the creator.

No "death , carnage, disease, starvation, extinction" process going on here as under the kingdom of darkness today.

Romans 8 points to the fact that this creation was subjected to decay as a result of the fall of man. And it will be set free from that decay when mankind is glorified.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So murder and stealing were "ok" -- when?

 

How do you get out of that post I am saying it is ok to steal and murder.

The Scripture says God created Evil and to say otherwise is to deny the Scripture and not just what I say.

 

The text does not say "The earth became wasted and void" after being created with only rocks and water on it. It does not say "The earth was destroyed" in Genesis 1.

It says "THIS IS the account" of the creation of earth!

Each day describes the actual creation of what it states - nothing of that kind was on earth -- BEFORE but just not described.

No lilith.

No pre-creation Earth here.

2 Peter 3 -
4 and saying, "" Where is the promise of His coming[/b]? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.''
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.[/b]
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [b]not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of [b]the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

13 But according to His promise we are looking for [b]new heavens and a new earth[/b], in which righteousness dwells.

 

It "became evil" implies a time before it "became evil" to steal - which implies that stealing was not evil etc.

I don't mind admitting that "God is Just" and that God therefore ran the universe under a just and holy "Law" from all of time past - and that since that is the case - stealing and murder have always been evil.

If you want to say that "God creates the definition for evil" by stating 'what is Good" - I don't have a problem with that.

But God did not create evil - he creates "calamity" which is what the OT text is referencing. AS 2 Peter 3 shows it is God that caused the flood "calamity' for all the earth.

 

Satan rebells before Eve comes to the tree - in fact before Adam and Eve are created because on day one of their creation they are warned about the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And as you point out - the angels exist before the creation of this world.

Their creation and the creation of the rest of the universe's suns, planets etc is not described as taking place in the 7 days of creation week in Gen 1-2:3.

 

Well I picked out one thing to talk about to make it simple and that was "steal"

Did God make Good? Peace

When God told Adam "the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat", was that GOOD?

 

all "things" and people and beings are "Finite".

God is infinite - from all of eternity past.

Did God "become loving" only after creating the first being?

Did God "become someone who thought stealing was wrong" as soon as He "created someone"??

Or was this already a basic defining aspect to His own character from eternity past?

I think "it was HIM" in His unchanging character from all eternity past. He always considered unloving acts - hate, stealing etc to be "wrong" to violate the pure standard of His moral character.

 

BTW we seem to be in agreement that murder and hate was wrong BEFORE we see the comman "not to murder" - because God says to Cain "SIN is at your door but you must master it" and Cain became "the first murderer".

Which means we agree that the Law of God existed before being codified by Moses.

 

You seem to be saying that good or evil had no beginning but always existed and are as old as God. I thought God saw that man's heart was evil and said I will destroy him from the earth. peace

I think all of the Commandment existed before they were given to Moses.