Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Sep 30, 2015.

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Were Men Born Again Before The Cross or Pentecost?

  1. 1. Yes

    33.3%
  2. 2. No

    66.7%
  3. 3. Not sure, I will consider the question

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Okay, have this thread running in the Baptist Section, but wanted to get the Other Denominations in on it as well, so, a simple enough question, and I just ask that you give it some thought before answering, and if you can, please state whether this is something you have given thought to before.

    I will withhold my own views until we get some participation.

    I would add a poll but for some reason some of the functions are not working for me, so if I can get it in I will. I am also not able to use the sizing function when quoting.


    God bless.
     
    #1 Darrell C, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2015
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Request to Staff or Moderators: could you add a poll to this thread? If so, could you ask the question of the OP and give three answers:

    1.Yes.

    2. No.

    3. Not sure, have to think about it.


    That would be appreciated. Having some issues with a few functions right now.


    God bless.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver
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    What I found in the Scriptures is that while Pentecost is the "pouring out" to both Jews and Gentiles as the major event to usher in the spiritual kingdom of God by indwelling men and women, the very first to receive the rebirth was the disciples who met with Jesus after His glorification.

    "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" (John 20:22)

    John made it perfectly clear that the Holy Spirit was "not yet given" until Jesus Christ was glorified.

    "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:38-39)

    Jesus also made this clear when He told the disciples the Holy Ghost shall be (not already was) in them.

    "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:17)

    There is a distinct difference between having the Holy Spirit dwell with you and having the Holy Spirit as One in you, a New Creation.
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    This is a view believed by some, and while it is preferable to believing men were born again under Old Testament Economies, it has it's problems.

    While we understand Christ was glorified in His Resurrection, and the quote makes it clear the Holy Ghost was not given then, we also follow the teaching of Christ in John 14 and 16 where it is made clear that Christ must depart, not simply be glorified, before the Comforter was given. And it is the Comforter ministering the Gospel and...

    ...glorifying Christ.

    Consider:



    John 16:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;




    While some have argued that the "going away" refers to His death, that cannot be borne out by the context which we can pick up in the beginning of John 14 (and before, really), in which the disciples hearts were troubled because the Lord was leaving. Further, we see His return to Heaven further established because He speaks of returning for them, that He might take them to that place He would prepare.

    We also see that the Disciples had not received the Holy Ghost on the Day of Christ's Ascension, which fulfills that "going away," and that they would not receive the Holy Ghost for not many days hence:



    Acts 1:4-8

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



    So it is a little difficult to place the disciples as born again believers prior to Pentecost.

    And while our charismatic brethren would argue they had been indwelt and that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event which empowers, we can see in v.8 that they would be empowered after the Holy Ghost came upon them. We see that event in Acts 2.

    The Holy Spirit has always empowered men, so we see a distinct ministry emerge when the Comforter is sent. And in keeping with this...



    John 14:16-17

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



    Two characteristics are revealed: the eternal indwelling (as contrasted with the empowering of the Old Testament Economies, where the Spirit coming upon someone but leaving was a reality), as noted in v.16 (which is also contrasted with Christ the Comforter leaving), and, the distinction made between the Holy Ghost being with them at the time of the teaching, and being in them when the Comforter comes.

    So we see that the Holy Ghost in the Ministry of the Comforter could not come until Christ returned to Heaven. We see the Disciples are not Baptized with the holy Ghost on the Day of Ascension in accordance to that teaching of Christ, and, we recognize the difference between the "filling" of the Spirit of God for the purpose of empowerment (still in practice among believers today) and the eternal indwelling of God which began at Pentecost.

    The Baptism of the Holy Ghost would be the point of contention among differing groups. But if we see that the Promise of God and the teaching of Christ is said to be fulfilled not many days hence from the very day of the Ascension, which itself fulfills Christ's teachings, it seems apparent that fulfillment of the Comforter's Coming can be pinpointed to Pentecost, not after the Cross or the period between that and the Ascension.

    Thanks for participating, brother, this is a great discussion that I hope will benefit all of us.


    God bless.
     
  5. percho

    percho
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    DC

    I will stay mute over here. I love hash. But re-hash? :)
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Well, since my post disappeared, I will repeat what I said yesterday:

    It's not rehash when it involves participants that do not have access to the BaptistBoards.

    And it would be a good thing to remain mute, no sense spreading error from the other thread to this one. One thread containing errors such as Christ needing to be born again, Christ being the only one born again at this time, and confusing glorification with New Birth...is quite enough.

    So thanks!

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Okay Other Denominations, a poll has been added, and I am wondering if anyone out there has an understanding of this.

    God bless.
     
  8. percho

    percho
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    You are welcome.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I saw the message about a Percho wanting his name fixed to Poncho. Is that you? Are you the Poncho that is usually on the Politics Board?

    God bless.
     
  10. percho

    percho
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    Poncho is Poncho but I am Percho.
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Strange. There is a "percho" asking for his name to be changed to Poncho. Was it you that asked for that?


    God bless.
     

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