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Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

I praise God we do not have to pray that or cry that out ours is permanent. No one had received the Holy Spirit permanent until Jesus is glorified.


John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 19

19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

 

I can't give you any clearer scripture than i did. We can't lose the Holy Spirit, but David was afraid and knew He could.. What was saul anointed by when he became King?

1 Samuel 10:1
Then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the Lord anointed you ruler over his inheritance?

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

 

You are arguing, then, that David's indwelling of the Spirit was permanent?

I don't know that I agree. But, for the sake of the discussion, and for my sake--since I've not heard a specific argument for this before--could you detail your thoughts and state, specifically, why you think this is the case.

I'm simply curious as to your position and how you reach it.

The Archangel

 

The promises spoken of in Hebrews are not speaking of the promise of physical descendants, they speak of spiritual descendants(the Church/Body of Christ) through Christ as the seed of Abraham through whom the promises are fulfilled. The promises are spiritual promises; referring to all who are true Israel through Christ, which also supports my position.

The promise of eternal life could not, was not, will never be fulfilled in the law. Salvation only comes through the New Covenant by the blood of the Perfect Sacrifice. The promises were only fulfilled in, through, & by Christ. No Salvation until Christ's sacrifice.


Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.(Galatians 3:16-19)

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

 

So then, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah were lost?

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

The Archangel

 

This:

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. (Matthew 22:41-46, ESV)
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This:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:1-11, ESV)

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This:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. (1 Peter 1:10-12, ESV)
​

Sure! What are you intending to convey by quoting these texts, or each individual text?


The Archangel

 

Let me ask the hard question: Is the point of these passages the "in the spirit" idea?

For instance, is Jesus (and Matthew) intending to emphasize the "in the Spirit" idea? Is that the main point of the passage?

Is Paul in Romans 8 intending to argue the Old Testament or is he addressing the 1st Century audience in Rome?

In the Peter passage, is Peter indicating a perpetual indwelling of the Spirit, or is he arguing for the idea of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the prophets' writing?

Those are the first questions to deal with.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Old Testament messengers had the Holy Spirit helping them, but not permanently for the same reason for us permanently. Paul spent His life seeking them, because no one seek God. They were messenger being sent out, but it does not mean that those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed were not being included.

Ezekiel 33 :
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
[Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Corinthians 5 :
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The need of preachers bringing the good news is the reason behind no one seeks God, and none are righteous, because Jesus came to save sinners.

 

1st off, thanks for the quick reply to my former post....:thumbs: Maybe I painted with too broad of a brush when I spoke about Abraham. Yet we both agree that he did perform animal sacrifices. Now, we also both agree that the animal sacrificies were OT types of the Messiah to come and shed His blood on the cross. So with the shedding of these animal sacrificies under the OT, and especially the Law, there wasn't a blotting out of their sins, just "stayed" for a while, and then another sacrifice was needed. The Law was a works based covenant where they had to do certain things, or they died. They had to keep the Law in order to be in "good standing" with the Lord. All of the things that they did that pertained to the Law, were types of Christ. IOW, the Law pointed to Him. The Law was their "schoolmaster", if you will, and it brought them to Christ, but the Law could put them in Christ. There was no justification under the Law, just condemnation. There was a remembrance of their sins under the Law, but under the Grace Covenant, God said their sins and iniquities will I remember no more(Hebrews 8:10, 10:16).

Either way you put it, there was no blotting out of sins under the Law. Whether we say their sins were "stayed", or "pushed ahead", the end result was still the same.....they had to make another sacrifice.

All of these atonements made under the Law, were only temporary, and another one was necessary at a later date.

Look closely at those men you just mentioned here. All of these were types of OT Christs, in that they interacted directly with God, and He spoke with them verbally. They were the "go betweens", and God spoke to them, and they, in turn, spoke with the children of Israel, and told them what God told them they must do(a picture of Christ conversing with the Church, if I ever saw one).

And I will use a verse that I use as a username in a couple other christian message boards: Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Christ is, was, and forever will be, the fulfilling, ending, and abolishing of the law. He ushered in the Grace Covenant when He was seated on the right hand of the Father in glory.

I agree. But, the atonement that the blood of bulls and goats couldn't do away with sins, only appease it for a while. Christ's blood blots them out forever.

Agreed. The sacrifical system under the OT, and especially the Law, was pointing them to Christ.

Agree with this. God had them through His Grace, knowing that Christ was coming to pay their sin debt in full.

 

Yes and no. "The Angel of the Lord" does some very God-like things--received worship, etc. That's not a "clue," per se, it's outright demonstration of Who He is.

And, in some sense, The Angel of the Lord was not Jesus. Jesus is the God-Man. The Angel of the Lord was the second person of the Trinity. He would later become the God-Man and will be so for all eternity.

So, there is a correlation in concept here, but not in actuality.

And, we must ask, for what purpose? Peter makes the case it was for prophesying. Were there other reasons? Undoubtedly. But, in the instance of the 1 Peter passage, Peter is only stating one reason--and, I might add, it's not the same reason you're arguing while quoting his epistle.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

But, the text of the Old Testament says atonement was made. That is inescapable, unless you want to claim the Bible contradicts itself.

So? How does that serve the discussion? These men, though types of Christ (but in a different way than you are intending to show) were still under the Law.

I'm not arguing that righteousness comes from the Law.

I don't think "abolishing" is the correct term. Christ Himself said He did not come to abolish the Law, but, instead, He came to fulfill it.

He lived the perfect life under the Law that we couldn't live and He died, as a substitutionary sacrifice, the death we owed God.

Again, the problem is that the Old Testament seems to think that it did atone for sins.

But, as I've stated earlier, had Christ never been planned by God, those sacrifices would not have atoned for anything.

Again, though....they weren't expecting "Jesus" from Nazareth. I've argued, somewhat strenuously, that the primary purpose of the Old Testament Sacrificial System was to create the context in which Christ's death would have had the intended meaning.

Do you intend to say that God had already "planned" Christ? If so, I agree. If, on the other hand, you intend to say that the Old Testament Saints were expecting Christ to pay their sin debt, then, no, I don't agree.

The Archangel

 

Thanks again for the civil debate...:thumbs: ....you cause me to dig a little deeper everytime we converse, and that's always a good thing....:thumbs:
Okay, let me take a another stab at this. It's true that the animal's blood which was sacrificed atoned for their sins, but not permanently. It needed done on a continual basis until Jesus did it once for all time. Does that clear things up? Yes? No? Maybe? Possibly? LOL? hehehehehe

These men you mentioned were the special of the special of the OT in that God hand picked them to carry out His desires amongst His people. Yet, they had to make animal sacrifies for their sins as well. Their sins were atoned for, yes, but never blotted out by the blood of a bull and/or goat.

:thumbs:

Bear with me, this may get a little lengthy....hopefully it won't.

The handwritting of ordinances that was against us was the Law. The Law could never justify, on condemn.

The ministration of death written and engraven in stone is the Law. The ministration of the Spirit is the Grace Covenant. Jesus did away with the Law and ushered in the Grace Covenant. Jesus didn't die, was buried, and arose just to have the Law alongside the Grace Covenant. There's only one existing covenant now betwixt God and His children, Grace.

Under the Law, they were in bondage to it. If they didn't keep it, they died. Under Grace, when we sin, Grace much more abounds. Grace is merciful unto us, God children, than the Law was.

There was no faith, or very little of it, under the Law, because it was a works based covenant. They had to do things to stay in "good standing" with God. Not so under Grace. Grace is what keeps us now.

Jesus bore our curse for us, in that only He could truly atone for our sins in a manner that they would never be brought up before us again. Under the Law, they were remembered....or rather, brought back before them again. Christ abolished this when He hung, bled, died, and arose, and ascended back to the Father.

Never permanently atoned for them, however.

Jesus was always the plan.

Expound a little further, please. The way I understand things, is that the shedding of blood via animals was that death was the only remedy for sin. God gave them this system until He would send His Son to atone for our sins via His shed blood.....and it had to be innocent blood, too. That's why only animals would suffice under the context of the Law's sacrificial system.

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He was the only plan, and wasn't a fallback, or plan B.