Were the disciples saved before the resurrection?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Everyone;
    Many have told me that that there are saints in the old testament saved by faith in Christ. You would think if this is so that the disciples would have been saved as well. As I understand the New Testament says that we must believe that the Father has raised Christ from the dead and that he sits at the right hand of the Father. This would be hard to believe if it hadn't happened yet.
    I contend that men if they believe in God and worshiped Him were kept in Abrahams bossom captive until Christ came and set them free.

    The disciples knew Christ was going to die and that Christ said He would raise from the dead after three days. How ever when He first appeared to them they did not believe it was Him imediately.

    For Calvinist if you believe the disciples were saved then how do you explain them being saved without the Holy Spirit?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  2. dianetavegia

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    Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    The requirement for all is Faith, Many in the Old Testament met that requirement!
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    With all do respect to Catholics and our Lord, I do not think Noah had a crucifix around his neck, especially when building the Ark. ;)
     
  5. johnp.

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    ILUVLIGHT.

    JN 13:10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

    JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
    JOB 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
    JOB 19:27 I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

    1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    LK 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    They were in the transition period. They were saved but the Holy Spirit did not always stay with the Children of God until Pentecost onwards.
    JER 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

    johnp.
     
  6. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi dianetavegia
    Very good scripture you've posted. However what I would like to know is how can anyone be saved without believing in this way;
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    In other words is belief in the existance of Christ as the Son of God enough to save or do we have to acknowledge that the Father has raised Him from the dead as well. Not to mention that when Peter acknowledged Christ for who He is, the atonement hadn't been paid yet.
    My Reason for this thread is to show that we have to believe it all and not just some remote part of it.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Wes;
    This is the requirement since the Death and resurrection of Christ. How ever men were saved by keeping the Law in the Old Testament. Every part of Judaism is based on the keeping of the Law. Yes they had faith as well but being saved in the Old Testament meant being held captive in Abrahams bossom they were held there until Christ came and preached the gospel to them. If they believed in Christ they were then saved. and there spirit set free from there captivity.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ray;
    Amen
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    This is the requirement since the Death and resurrection of Christ. How ever men were saved by keeping the Law in the Old Testament. Every part of Judaism is based on the keeping of the Law. Yes they had faith as well but being saved in the Old Testament meant being held captive in Abrahams bossom they were held there until Christ came and preached the gospel to them. If they believed in Christ they were then saved. and there spirit set free from there captivity.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then what do you do with all the New Testament references to the Faith of our Old Testament forefathers? Further more Keeping the law is a testament to one's faith.
     
  10. dianetavegia

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    ILUVLIGHT, those saints of old believed the prophecy of the coming Messiah. They looked 'forward in faith' to the coming of Jesus and the price he would pay for their sins, as the sinless Son of God, as we look 'back in faith' and remember what Jesus did for us.

    John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    Psalms 50:1 A Psalm of Asaph. The Mighty One, God the Lord, Has spoken and called the earth From the rising of the sun to its going down. 2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God will shine forth. 3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; A fire shall devour before Him, And it shall be very tempestuous all around Him. 4 He shall call to the heavens from above, And to the earth, that He may judge His people: 5 "Gather My saints together to Me, Those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice." 6 Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge. Selah

    Psalms 34:1 A Psalm of David when he pretended madness before Abimelech, who drove him away, and he departed. I will bless the Lord at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth. 2 My soul shall make its boast in the Lord; The humble shall hear of it and be glad. 3 Oh, magnify the Lord with me, And let us exalt His name together. 4 I sought the Lord, and He heard me, And delivered me from all my fears. 5 They looked to Him and were radiant, And their faces were not ashamed. 6 This poor man cried out, and the Lord heard him, And saved him out of all his troubles. 7 The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them. 8 Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him! 9 Oh, fear the Lord, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him. 10 The young lions lack and suffer hunger; But those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing.
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi JohnP;
    I don't know if your aware, the disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is what we receive after we believe. Just as the disciples did.
    I don't believe the disciples were saved until after the resurrection because even at the last supper Christ hjad this to say to Peter.

    Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
    Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    You will notice in verse 32 that Peter had faith before His conversion. Conversion is regeneration. This is that moment that you believe and accept and in an instant we have a changed heart. Peter hadn't been saved up until that moment yet He had faith.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp.
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    ILUVLIGHT.

    The atonement was always effective. Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

    johnp.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    ILUVLIGHT.


    Does that mean that we must keep on crucifying the Christ?
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp.
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    ILUVLIGHT.

    So you are saying that the disciples did not believe in Jesus until Pentecost?

    1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

    Thomas acknowledged Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

    JN 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
    JN 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  15. johnp.

    johnp.
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    forgot e-mail notification :cool:
     
  16. dianetavegia

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    The Holy Spirit is, was, has been.... He was with saints even in the O.T. times yet did not indwell them on a constant basis until after the death of our Lord.

    Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners shall be converted to You.

    Isaiah 63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord And the praises of the Lord, According to all that the Lord has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses. 8 For He said, "Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie." So He became their Savior. 9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, 12 Who led them by the right hand of Moses, With His glorious arm, Dividing the water before them To make for Himself an everlasting name, 13 Who led them through the deep, As a horse in the wilderness, That they might not stumble?" 14 As a beast goes down into the valley, And the Spirit of the Lord causes him to rest, So You lead Your people, To make Yourself a glorious name.

    Da 5:11 There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father--your father the king--made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi dianetavegia

    I'm not saying that those who believed in the coming messiah in the old Testament went to Hell. but were held captive. With out Christ no one would be saved.It is the spilled blood of Christ that saves us. It is the sacrifice of Christ that took our sins away. Can we say that the old Testament saints were saved in advance of payment the sacrifice was for.

    Did Christ descend into the depths of the earth when He died to overcome hell and set the captives free? Who were the captives held there was it not those who lived by the law. Those he set free are the ones who believed in Him.

    I believe that the Old Testament times had a different set of rules than we do. The old Testament never says they were saved by faitn in there coming messiah. So how would they know they had to believe in Christ without the gospel? Yes the Messiah is mentioned in every book of the Bible if you know what to look for.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    That's fine Johnp, but the reference 1 john 4:2 is to aid us in identifying those spirits that come to us to deceive us or to help us. The spirit realm is quite busy with both. So if you are getting spiritual persuasions you'd better ask that spirit, "who do you say that Jesus is, Those who answer that Jesus is God come in the flesh are from God, all others should be shut out! They are deceivers and liars!
     
  19. billwald

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    Wrong question! God operates outside our time line. They were saved before God created this universe.
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    You are forbidden to speak to the spirits. You speak to them. What are their names?

    johnp.
     

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