What are the Differences between Old/New Covenants?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Dod both OT/NT believers have SAME thing done to them/for them by God?

    Why is the New one called "superior/more sure/better?"
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    First, the New Covenant is older in time - "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" - Heb. 13:20

    Second, the terms "new" versus "old" only refer to the public ratification by blood in time not the application of the covenant in time.

    Third, the term "new" in reference to the "everlasting" covenant is the same in meaning as the "new" birth and "new" heaven and earth, etc. It never grows old but is always "new"

    Fourth, the very same covenant with all of its applications were applied before the cross as after the cross and received the very same way THROUGH FAITH.

    1. Abraham was JUSTIFIED before the cross - Rom. 4
    2. Abraham was SANCTIFIED before the cross - Heb. 11

    The only thing Abraham did not receive BEFORE the cross is the same thing we have not yet received - GLORIFIED bodies and PERFECTION.

    All Old Testament saints were regenerated, indwelt, progressively sanctififed, justified and led by the Spirit of God.
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    Scripture please?

    As the NT makes plain that the Old Covenant was in force until time of Christ, and NONE under that adminstration by God were sealed and infilled by the HS as we are now, and none were new creatures in christ as we are now!

    As the new Covenant came in place at time of messiah, and that pentacost was the time of the HS coming in his new way to seal and idwell us ALL as living temples of God!
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    Both covenants were in force before they were publicly ratified by blood. The way of works versus grace is contrasted in the "way of Cain" versus the way of faith characterized by Abel.

    John 3:3-9 makes it clear the new birth by the Spirit of God preceded the cross and Nicodemus was rebuked for ignorance that it was an essential for "man".

    Deuteronomy 29:4 makes it clear that CURRENTLY the condition of man that only circumcision of the heart could change.

    Immediately upon conferring the law in stone God said:

    De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

    What is true as to Israel as a nation is true to all individuals as there is no NATIONAL "heart" but only the individual "heart" within individuals.

    Such a heart cannot please God. Hence, those individuals that did please God were circumcised in heart - born again.

    The only thing that changed with the cross is the cessation of the public administration of the Law through Israel and the introduction of a new PUBLIC administration of the everlasting covenant of Grace, the same grace found in the words "And Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." The same "grace" found in Abraham's faith - "it is of faith that it might by by grace" (Rom. 4:16).
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Jun 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2012
  5. Yeshua1

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    No, what is big difference is that under the old Coevevant relationship men came to God thru priesthood and saxcrifices, those only remitted/forbade sins before Godm, but when Christ came and die, they were removed from us...

    The Holy Spirit once again in a different role under new Covenant, as now ALL who believe receive the HS, get new natures, and in christ!
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    No, that was the "SHADOW" the law provided but not the REALITY. The REALITY was always direct access to God by faith. All six of the following came directly before God by faith alone.

    1. Noah
    2. Abraham
    3. Job
    4. Joseph
    5. Moses
    6. Daniel (no temple, no priests)

    Direct address was always the reality preached by all the prophets - "TO HIM give all the prophets witness that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIS NAME shall receive remission of sins." - Acts 10:43
     
  7. billwald

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    Jesus thought the material included in "Moses and the Prophets" was sufficient for salvation.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    "material"????

    Jesus claimed that "Moses and the Prophets" preached Christ:

    Luk. 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


    Luk. 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:


    Jesus taught that the Law only availed for those who could keep it but asserted none could keep it:

    Jesus taught "There is none goodbut one and that is God"

    Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?
     
  9. billwald

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    >"material"????

    Information, teaching. Jesus taught that Torah was and the covenant defined by Torah was sufficient for salvation. Even someone returning from the dead would not be a more efficient teacher than Moses and the Prophets. Didn't Moses and the Prophets teach God's Truth? Did God lie to to Moses? Did Moses lie to the people? The Mosiac Covenant was insufficient? Why did Moses teach it was sufficient?
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Better inform Paul of that then, because Paul denied that the Torah and the covenant defined by the torah was ever designed to save or provide eternal life:

    for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.



    You just don't get it do you? Jesus, Peter and Paul all taught that Moses and all the prophets preached the very same gospel we preach as the ONLY WAY to be justified, obtain eternal life, have sins remitted - Acts 10:43; Luke 24:25-27; 43-44; Heb. 4:2.

    No prophet of God has ever taught that the covenant of works can convey eternal life, justification or salvation to any man.
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    You and I BOTH agree that the law did NOT save anyone, as sinful flesh unable to keep it well enough...

    that the BASIS of ANY getting saved was the atonement of jesus upon the Cross, his death as a propiation towards God...

    Where we differ is that I see the Bible teaching that the new Covenant was in force ONLY once messiah died/ascended and sent back the Holy spirit in a new way!
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Do you understand that the New Covenant is inclusive of all that God's grace provides for a person to be saved? It not only involves all that the Father covenanted to do for salvation but all that both the Son and Spirit covenanted to do for salvation?

    If as you assert, that the covenant, meaning all the Father, Son and Holy Spirit committed themselves unto to save was not in force, thus could not be implemented prior to the cross then there could be NO SALVATION prior to the cross for anyone at anytime.

    You simply cannot pick and choose! It is either NOTHING or ALL.

    If you are right then there is nothing pertaining to GRACE, no REGENERATION, no JUSTIFICATION, no FAITH, no SANCTIFICATION - nothing prior to the cross. You cannot pick and choose!

    It is patently obvious your interpretation is completely false. Noah "found grace in the eyes of the Lord" the Bible says. Abraham was not merely "justified" which by its very definition in Romans 4:4-8 is righteousness imputed and sins not imputed to them (which means "remission of sins" as Acts 10:43 explicitly demands) but "faith" is also "BY GRACE" (Rom. 4:16).

    If JUSTIFICATION and WALKING BY FAITH (Heb. 11) occurred prior to the cross then EVERY OTHER ASPECT of the covenant of Grace was equally applied on the very same basis.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    What i am saying is that the OT believers were saved by god in the sense that He forbade/remitted their sins, but they were NOT internally changed as we are now!

    the new Covenant was NOT in force UNTIL Jesus came, as before that was age of the Law given by Moses!
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    You have no scriptural basis to apply anything in the covenant of grace prior to the cross if the covenant of grace was not applicable until after the cross.

    If he could remit sins prior to the cross he could regenerate, indwell, justify, sanctify as well. You cannot pick and choose because all of these things are contained in the same covenant and made possible by the same covenant.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    Can the Lord remit/forbade the sins of the mentally challenged/infants, as they cannot place faith in him, nor have new natures?
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Can the Lord enable infants to respond to the gospel in the womb and jump for joy as in the case of John the Baptist while yet in the womb?

    Can an infant be "filled" with the Spirit of God in the womb as was John the Baptist.

    Can Christ save infants the same way Adam condemned them?
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    You hold to babies being regenerated by God by having faith in christ?
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    Do you deny that John the Baptist was enabled by God in the womb to comprehend the glad tidings of Christ's birth?

    Don't you realize that salvation is a REVELATION from God? (Mt. 16:17; 2 Cor. 4:6)???
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Again it is a self evident axiom that there can be no SPIRITUAL LIFE apart from UNION with the Spirit of God.

    Again it is a self evident axiom that SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from the Spirit of God IS Spiritual death!

    If the baptism in the Spirit is SPIRITUAL UNION then all previous human beings were and still are SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED and thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD and thus are "children of wrath...children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:1-3) and "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:8-9.
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    John the baptist and Jesus were BOTH fufilling OT prophecies, special cases, not the norm!
     

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