What Arminians Believe about the Atonement

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Monergist, Apr 29, 2005.

  1. Monergist

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    This is a direct quote from Arminian Professor JK Rider in Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. This is a credible source; I point this out because someone will probably protest that I misrepresent their position. But anyone can check my source for themself.

     
  2. webdog

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    If indeed that's what they believe, then I don't believe in arminianism (nor calvinism) but the Word.
     
  3. icthus

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  4. Wes Outwest

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  5. whetstone

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    <img src =/11288.jpg>

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  6. Monergist

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  7. Wes Outwest

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    Monergist,
    The government builds superhighways for everyone in the country and those who visit, inspite of the fact that not everyone will use them. Does that not imply the same thing as Universal atonement?

    The highways are there for everyone, Atonement has been made for all sin, same principle. Of course we could carry this further. Airplanes, Trains, ships, etc. Anyone can take the trip, but not all do!

    Atonement was made once for ALL sin. All sin has been paid for, so that anyone who comes to faith in God can through the atonement have everlasting life.
     
  8. Monergist

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    Wes, If you owed me $100 and someone and paid off your debt to me in full, would it be just for me to come to you and demand that you pay me $100 as well? If I said "Wes, you owe me $100 and you need to pay"-- what would be your reply? "So&so has paid my debt already; It is settled." I would have no grounds to demand further payment.

    How then can we say that Christ paid the sin debt of everyone-- and then insist that some who have had their debt paid must pay further by suffering eternal condemnation? If the debt is paid-- It is paid!

    Our faith is not something that we give to God to settle the rest of our debt; Our faith is the means by which we RECEIVE the forgiveness of sins. We are justified BY grace THROUGH faith. That faith is a gift from God which enables us to receive the gift of salvation. In other words, God gants us both the pardon and the means by which to receive the pardon. Those who do not receive the pardon do not receive the gift of faith either.
     
  9. icthus

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    Wes, If you owed me $100 and someone and paid off your debt to me in full, would it be just for me to come to you and demand that you pay me $100 as well? If I said "Wes, you owe me $100 and you need to pay"-- what would be your reply? "So&so has paid my debt already; It is settled." I would have no grounds to demand further payment.

    How then can we say that Christ paid the sin debt of everyone-- and then insist that some who have had their debt paid must pay further by suffering eternal condemnation? If the debt is paid-- It is paid!

    Our faith is not something that we give to God to settle the rest of our debt; Our faith is the means by which we RECEIVE the forgiveness of sins. We are justified BY grace THROUGH faith. That faith is a gift from God which enables us to receive the gift of salvation. In other words, God gants us both the pardon and the means by which to receive the pardon. Those who do not receive the pardon do not receive the gift of faith either.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You have clearly not understood the nature of the Atonement. You are wrong with you illustration with the $100 debit payment. With the Atonement, Jesus could only have died "once for all", not evry time someone repented. Scripture says that God has "set forth" (that is, "offered") Jesus as "a propitiation...(to) him that believeth in Jesus" (Rom. 3:24-27). Jesus has paid the price, but it is up to each person to accept this for themselves. What if they should choose not to? Romans chapter one clearly tells us that man "does not retain God in their knowledge" (v.28), and does everything that is against the will of God.

    You have to deal with the issue of, why does anyone go to hell in the first place, and then you will have a better understanding of the Atonement.
     
  10. Monergist

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    People go to hell because sin has separated them from God. God's justice demands that their sin debt be paid before reconciliation can be made. Christ's atoning work PAYS that sin debt. "IT IS FINISHED." No further atoning work must be done; indeed, no other atoning work CAN be done.

    When the debt is paid, it is erased-- Sinful man has been reconciled back to God. That, my friend, is the beautiful and glorious work of the atonement!
     
  11. icthus

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    People go to hell because sin has separated them from God. God's justice demands that their sin debt be paid before reconciliation can be made. Christ's atoning work PAYS that sin debt. "IT IS FINISHED." No further atoning work must be done; indeed, no other atoning work CAN be done.

    When the debt is paid, it is erased-- Sinful man has been reconciled back to God. That, my friend, is the beautiful and glorious work of the atonement!
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is true, but only part of what it is. Jesus says clearly in Mark 16:15-16, "...go into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned"

    What you do think Jesus meant by these words? What did He mean to believe the Gospel? What is the Gospel?
     
  12. Monergist

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    Believing is synonymnous with having faith. The gospel is that Christ saves sinners. The object of believing, the object of faith-- is Christ.

    He that believeth not will be damned. He who does not have faith will be damned. He who does not rest in Christ alone (not in Christ + what man adds to Christ's work ) is apart from Christ.
     
  13. icthus

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    Believing is synonymnous with having faith. The gospel is that Christ saves sinners. The object of believing, the object of faith-- is Christ.

    He that believeth not will be damned. He who does not have faith will be damned. He who does not rest in Christ alone (not in Christ + what man adds to Christ's work ) is apart from Christ.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The Gospel, or "Good News" is that "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15). He that believeth on this, will not perish but have everlasting live. Jesus Himself says, "unless you repent you will likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). Is this spoken to the "elect"? If so, it makes completely no sense. For, why would have to tell this ro the "elect", seeing that once they heard the Gospel they would repent. No, this is spoken to all the world. Unless man repents and believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ, they cannot not be saved. Jesus died for all without exception, but "unless you repent you will likewise perish". Get it?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Christ was the sin offering for all mankind - the one who died as the "atoning sacrifice" (1John 2:2) for OUR SINS and NOT FOR OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLD WORLD.

    That means He paid the penalty owed by mankind. All the sins of all mankind "yes really".

    The "problem" is that few people (Calvinist OR Arminian) take the time to consider that in GOD's Gospel model for Atonement (found in Lev 16) the Atoning SACRIFICE is not the END of the service.

    So the Arminian concept recognizes that BEYOND the Cross - there is the individual acceptance of the gift and that heavenly application (Christ as our High Priest Heb 8-10).

    In the Calvinist mode it "Ends" in 1John 2:2 no matter what God says about the "Atonement process" in Lev 16 or Christ's role as high priest in Heb 8-10.

    In turning a blind eye to those doctrinal truths of scripture - they fall into the error needing to insert "limited atonement" into 1John 2:2.

    1John 2:2 describes NO LIMIT AT ALL in terms of who the atoning sacrifice is intended for -
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    If I owed you $100, and someone else gave you $100 in my name and in my stead, that is, became my bondsman, then I no longer owe you $100 dollars, you have been paid, and if you come to me seeking payment for what has already been paid, then it is you who sins, because you are not dealing with me honestly. You would indeed become the wicked servant who though forgiven for your debts, would not forgive others for their debts to you.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    True.

    What you are missing is that "God did not GET paid -- God DID THE PAYING".

    It is not a debt of 100 dollars owed God and then some non-God person PAYING God on your behalf.

    With each insult - with each wound TO GOD the SON -- GOD WAS OWED MORE!

    You can not PAY God by torturing God!

    God did not "suffer until HE felt better about you".

    When calvinists move away from the Greek "pagan" idea of "appeasement of a vengeful deity" and towards the God-ordained doctrine of "atonement" (in fact substitutionary atonement) complete with SACRIFICE AND with HIGH Priests ministry (Heb 8) then you will not suppose that someone had "paid God your 100 dollars".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    It's the principle of who did what to whom and why!

    The why is clearly stated in scripture, "that they might have life".
     
  18. BobRyan

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    You are correct - Christ is the "Atoning sacrifice" for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World! -- "In order that" we may have life - by accepting that provision made for us - the Gospel of our salvation.

    But Christ did this within God's Gospel solution of "atonement" as we see in Lev 16.

    And in that solution model - there is the "sin offering" sacrifice (the Atoning sacrifice - a substitutionary death) and then there is the High-Priestly work in the sanctuary (Heb 8 -- Christ continues His work after the Cross - as our High Priest).

    BOTH of these actions of Christ are combined to create "Atonement".

    So the sacrifice is FOR ALL the World -- but atonement completed for each individual -- involves the actual conversion of that "person" not just the "Atoning sacrifice" completed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    That is why "Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the WORD of God."

    You are reading old testament INTO the New covenant! Jesus atonement is ONCE for ALL. There is never another Sacrifice that can top what Jesus did ONCE! Your Old COVENANT atonement is accurate, but it does not carry forward into the New! God himself told us that the sacrifice of animals did not please him. So why would it please him now? Don't make it more complicated than it is!

    Christ paid the price, we come by faith based upon what has been given to us, and that is the Word of God. Not of works, lest anyman should boast!
     
  20. BobRyan

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    The NT authors did not have "the OT to throw out the window" as some do today -- they only had "scripture".

    The NT authors said of that scripture that it was "sufficient" for salvation doctrine and instruction (2Tim 3: 16-17).

    The NT authors rejected the idea that there is an OT Gospel and another NT Gospel. They said that in all of time - there is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11).

    The NT authors considered the OT saints to be GIANTS of the faith EVEN by NT standards (Heb 11).

    The NT authors said that the "GOSPEL has been preached TO US JUST as it had been to THEM ALSO" Heb 4:2.

    The NT authors viewed the Hebrew scriptures as their "God ordained basis for the Gospel" NOT the pagan ideas of "appeasing a vengeful deity" - which is why they HELD to the Lev 16 model of "atonement" and the HIGH Priestly work of Christ EXCPLICITLY described in Heb 8-10!.

    While it is ok to simply "make up" the idea that these texts don't exist -- they exist "anyway".

    And so -- some of us read them.

    One Gospel.

    One sinful nature.

    One Savior.

    One Bible.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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