What CHURCH?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

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    In the Gospel of Matthew we read the following:

    Matthew 16: 13-18
    13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    Baptists in general, though not universally, believe that Jesus Christ is referring to the faith that Peter exhibits in the statement Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. when He states upon this rock I will build my church.

    My first question is: What Church is Jesus Christ talking about?

    Jesus Christ calls it MY CHURCH, yet there are some who claim that the Church was not started until sometime after the conversion of Saul, the persecutor of the Church, who became Paul the Apostle.

    For those who deny that the Church existed before the conversion of Saul they would do well to read the following:

    1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
    Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

    My second question is: What Church was Saul [later to become the Apostle Paul] persecuting?
     
  2. Johnv

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    That's somewhat debatable. I acrually see it as both. I think Peter was, quite literally, the rock in which Jesus is founding his church upon. But I don't think that this means Jesus was referring to a religious institution:

    The Greek word here is "ekklesia", which referrs to an assembly of believers. It does not refer to a demonination as we know it today. We humans created denominations, God did not.

    I think Jesus was imparting upon Peter a huge responsibility to lead the assembly of believers. Likewise, like Peter, we believers are to embrace the type of faith Peter had. But, Peter was by no means perfect, even going to far as to deny Jesus, not once, but three times. This was after so boldly pronouncing his completel faith in Christ.

    I think that all congregations that profess Christ as Peter did are all the church of Christ. Likewise, congregations are imperfect, and we will sometimes fail our faith, denying Christ from time to time. This does not excuse it, but as humans, we must understand that this will happen, and when it does, we need to acknowlege our mistake, and continue to move on. SOmetimes, though, we like to stop and point the finger at another congregation because they happen to be in the "denying" stage, while we're not. And we do this thinking that what's happenning to them will never happen to us.

    Okay, I'm done with my soapbox.
     
  3. RTG

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    I believe the rock = the Christ,Peter was blessed,
     
  4. ituttut

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    QUOTE]Originally posted by OldRegular:
    In the Gospel of Matthew we read the following:

    Matthew 16: 13-18
    13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    This is true for it is the Word of God

    Baptists in general, though not universally, believe that Jesus Christ is referring to the faith that Peter exhibits in the statement Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. when He states upon this rock I will build my church.

    This true for it is the Word of God, and the Church is the Only Begotten Son of God, and Peter will build his foundation on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

    My first question is: What Church is Jesus Christ talking about?

    His Church

    Jesus Christ calls it MY CHURCH, yet there are some who claim that the Church was not started until sometime after the conversion of Saul, the persecutor of the Church, who became Paul the Apostle.

    The Church is Christ Jesus, and Saul hated that Church for He did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, and Saul was a Holy terror against this New Church of the Jew of which Jesus said He came for, and only them.

    For those who deny that the Church existed before the conversion of Saul they would do well to read the following:

    1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    Amen Brother OldRegular. That church in the wilderness became the Church of the “kingdom” for which Jesus said He came for, as the message was for “kingdom at hand”, which John the Baptist preached. Is this the “foundation” that the Christian message is found upon?

    Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

    My second question is: What Church was Saul [later to become the Apostle Paul] persecuting?
    [/QUOTE]

    Paul was persecuting that Jewish church of Pentecost, that was offered the “kingdom” that was presented to them, but His chosen people refused that “kingdom”, and Paul was part of that establishment, and evidently the greatest enemy physically persecuting Jesus Christ.

    What Love the Lord has for all of us, regardless of what we may do, if we are one of the chosen. He made Saul/Paul suffer greatly for Him, and He will do likewise with we that do the same. This shows we may hurt the cause of Christ, but it will come to naught for He will use it for His own purposes. God knew this would happen. He knew Stephen would be killed by his own people; those of the likes of Saul. Jesus warned them in a parable this could happen, and it did. God was prepared after the stoning, for a few years later, Christ would have this same man begin building that other house on His (Christ Jesus’) foundation. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  5. Bible Student

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    Good Question OldRegular, I have asked that question before as well, but have not received a good answer. I also believe the rock is Christ.


    Richard
    [​IMG]
     
  6. ituttut

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    That's somewhat debatable. I acrually see it as both. I think Peter was, quite literally, the rock in which Jesus is founding his church upon. But I don't think that this means Jesus was referring to a religious institution:

    The Greek word here is "ekklesia", which referrs to an assembly of believers. It does not refer to a demonination as we know it today. We humans created denominations, God did not.

    I think Jesus was imparting upon Peter a huge responsibility to lead the assembly of believers. Likewise, like Peter, we believers are to embrace the type of faith Peter had. But, Peter was by no means perfect, even going to far as to deny Jesus, not once, but three times. This was after so boldly pronouncing his completel faith in Christ.

    I think that all congregations that profess Christ as Peter did are all the church of Christ. Likewise, congregations are imperfect, and we will sometimes fail our faith, denying Christ from time to time. This does not excuse it, but as humans, we must understand that this will happen, and when it does, we need to acknowlege our mistake, and continue to move on. SOmetimes, though, we like to stop and point the finger at another congregation because they happen to be in the "denying" stage, while we're not. And we do this thinking that what's happenning to them will never happen to us.

    Okay, I'm done with my soapbox.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Great understanding. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  7. ituttut

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    Amen! Christian faith, ituttut
     
  8. ituttut

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    You are on that solid rock. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  9. OldRegular

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    ituttut

    I put you in the same class as WesOutwest in your ability to twist Scripture and yet never answer a question.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Do I understand you correctly when you say that the Church is the Only Begotten Son of God? I know that the Apostle Paul speaks of the Church being the Body of Jesus Christ as well as the Bride of Jesus Christ but that can't be interpreted to mean that the Church is the Son of God. Strange, very strange!

    What is the basis for you stating that: Peter will build his foundation on the foundation of Jesus Christ. I don't understand what foundation Peter is going to build.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    You correctly state that Paul, prior to his conversion, hated the Church of Jesus Christ. My mistake, you said
    I am not sure what you mean but is this the Church of which Jesus Christ stated: The gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18]

    My question: What Church did the Gentile Samaritans who were converted under the preaching of Jesus Christ [John, Chapter 4] belong to?
     
  12. OldRegular

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    I thought the Christian message was:

    Matthew 16:16, 17
    16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    and

    Mark 1:15
    And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    but what Gospel?

    Mark 1:1
    1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    Ah Ha, I have it now, straight from Scripture, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    ituttut

    This Church of the “kingdom” you talk about is a new one on me. Could you give some Scripture to support that. In the Scripture in the OP Jesus Christ talked about
    and I take Him literally.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Well ituttut what happened to that Church? Jesus Christ said that He would build it and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Where is it today? Was Jesus Christ Mistaken?

    Of course we still have those Gentile Samaritans who were converted under the preaching of Jesus Christ to worry about! :D
     
  14. Helen

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    In arguing with a Roman Catholic about what Jesus meant in that passage, I decided to look up the times Rock had been used in the OLD Testament. Here is what I found, which is a very brief sampling:


    Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, with CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20)

    Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the stone, or rock, of Matthew 16:18 and parallel verses. Please take a look at some of the Scriptures the disciples, and all Jews, knew:

    Genesis 49:24 -- But his bow remained steady,
    his strong arms stayed limber,
    bacause of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
    because of the Shepherd the Rock of Israel,
    because of your father's God, who helps you...


    Deuteronomy 32:3-4 -- I will proclaim the name of the LORD,
    Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
    He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just.


    Deuteronomy 32:15 -- Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
    filled with food, he became heavy and sleek.
    He abandoned the God who made him
    and rejected the Rock his Savior.


    Deuteronomy 32:18 -- You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
    you forgot the God who gave you birth.


    Deuteronomy 32:30 -- How could one man chase a thousand,
    or two put ten thousand to flight,
    unless their Rock had sold them,
    unless the LORD had given them up?
    For their rock is not like our Rock,
    even as our enemies concede.



    Those verses are from the Torah -- the first five books of our Old Testament, which are referred to by Christ and all Jews as The Law. It is very clear in The Law who the Rock is.


    But let's keep going:

    1 Samuel 2:2 is part of Hannah's prayer --
    There is no one holy like the LORD;
    there is no one besides you;
    there is no Rock like our God.


    2 Samuel 22:32 -- For who is God besides the LORD?
    And who is the Rock except our God?


    2 Samuel 22:47 -- The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
    Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!


    Psalm 18 repeats these sections of 2 Samuel 22

    Psalm 19:14 -- May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
    be pleasing in your sight,
    O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.


    Psalm 28:1 -- To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
    do not turn a deaf ear to me.


    Psalm 42:9 -- I say to God my Rock,
    'Why have you forgotten me?
    Why must I go about mourning,
    oppressed by the enemy?


    Psalm 62:1-2 -- My soul finds rest in God alone;
    my salvation comes from him.
    He alone is my Rock and my salvation;
    he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.


    Psalm 89:26 -- "He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
    my God, the Rock, my Savior.'"


    Psalm 92:15 -- The LORD is upright;
    he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.


    Psalm 95:1 -- Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD;
    let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.


    Psalm 144:1 -- Praise be to the LORD my Rock,


    Isaiah 8:13-14 --
    The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
    he is the one you are to fear,
    he is the one you are to dread,
    and he will be a sanctuary;
    but for both houses of Israel he will be
    a stone that causes men to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall.


    Isaiah 17:10 -- You have forgotten God your Savior;
    you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.


    Isaiah 26:4 -- Trust in the LORD forever,
    for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.


    Isaiah 44:8 -- You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
    No, THERE IS NO OTHER ROCK; I KNOW NOT ONE.


    Consistently, in the Law, the Poetry, and the Prophets, "Rock" is used to describe God. It should be noted in the Isaiah verses quoted that not only is God the Rock at that time, but that He will be (8:14) and that he is the Rock eternal (26:4). This eliminates any other "Rock" in which to trust or believe in Jewish or Christian theology. Every single one of the disciples was Jewish and had been bar mitzvahed. They KNEW their Scriptures. When Jesus declared to them, "And on this Rock I will build my church" they would have known IMMEDIATELY what He was referring to. He was identifying Himself as God, in agreement with Peter's statement of faith.


    Christ's Church is made up of believers. Old Testament believers, too? Yes, for even Job said "I know my Redeemer lives". However, as written in Hebrews 11:39-40, they were not completed in their faith until joined with us, as New Testament believers. All together, we are the Church. The Church Saul was persecuting were those believers alive at that time.
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Helen,

    Amen. Well saying. [​IMG]
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Helen

    Amen, Very well said! [​IMG]
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Also, I would like to add something from the scripture talks about the rock.

    "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat, And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK was Christ." - 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

    Jesus Christ was already there in the Old Testament time, the saints were followed the rock which is Jesus Christ.

    The defintion word for 'church' means, called out, congregation.

    Interesting, during translating of 1611 Authorized Version. King James told to the translators, that he wanted word, 'congregation' changed to 'church'. He knew word 'church' actual means congrgeation - God's people.

    I find very interesting referance of 'church' with two passages in the Old Testament and in the New testament:

    In Genesis 32:28, when Jacob was wrestled with an angel. Angel asked him, what's name? He said, 'Jacob'. Then, an angel told him, "Thy name shall ne called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

    I find there are three important keys of Genesis 32:28- 'power', 'men', 'prevailed'. It is also find refer with Matthew 16:18-19 say: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    THere are three important keys om Matthew 16:18-19- 'church', 'prevail', and 'keys'.

    Let's back to Gen. 32:28 again. I understand what the angel said to Jacob. He told him, that he have a prince(Jesus), have power with God, and with people, and be successful or victory.

    Same with Matt. 16:18-19. Jesus told Peter, that he(Peter) is builting on Christ's foundation(actually, Christ means that He is builting his people-believers, and the gate of hell cannot beat or victory over Christ's foundation, because Christ already give the keys to His people to spread the gospel over the world(according Matt. 28:18-20).

    Word, 'keys', means or represent power. Christ already give power to his believers to spread the gospel unto the world according Matt. 28:18-20 & Acts 1:8 too.

    Word, 'church' means God's people either Jew or Gentile, whosever believeth upon Jesus Christ.

    Church was already existing in the Old Testament period hundreds of years before Christ born. In Acts 7:38 saying that, Moses was in the church in the wilderness. Church simple mean congregation.

    Also, 1 Cor. 10:1-4 telling, that people with Moses in the wilderness were follow the rock, which rock was Jesus Christ. Church was already there long, long time before Christ told Peter of Matt. 16:18-19.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. richard n koustas

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    i may be missing something here...if the 'church' includes OT saints, how can this be the same church that Jesus is going to build?
     
  19. Dave Taylor

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    House building...

    You dig the footer...
    You build the foundation...
    You build the walls...
    You build the roof..
    You build all the additional internal & external parts...

    The cornerstone caps off the building, showing its completeness as one single building that was erected over time and various stages...

    The OT faithful were the foundation...
    The NT faithful are the walls and additions...
    Jesus Christ is the cornerstone joining the entire building together into one.

    At the time Jesus and Peter talked, the foundation had been completed (probably with the final blocks laid by John the Baptist), and it was time to start building the walls and upper parts of the church; of which Peter and those with similar faith would later partake.

    That's how it is the 'same church' and how it includes the OT saints.
     
  20. richard n koustas

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    When Jesus said "...I will build my church" it sounds to me like a future event and it doesn't sound like the the foundation is laid yet... if it was, he would have said 'i'll continue building my church...'
     

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