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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 11, 2011.
was that a capital crime we would do, refusing jesus, or what?
John is speaking of spiritual death here, not physical death.
Oh YAY!!!! A thread that's not about Calvinism!
If he is, then you would be one who doesn't believe in eternal security.
No, he is speaking of physical death.
We have some examples in Scriptures.
One of them is in 1Cor.11:30, where there was much carnality, and people were abusing the Lord's Table. "For this reason many of you are sickly, and weak, and many of you sleep (are dead)." God had cut them off, killed them. They had sinned a sin unto death. God will only let a believer go so far. His chastisement may include death, that the name of God may not be blasphemed; that Christ's name might not be drug through the mud.
If I were a believer, professing the name of Christ, and at the same time, living a life of wickedness, I would be very careful about a looming death.
The same principle is put in more positive way in one of the Ten Commandments.
Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise. That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. (Ephesians 6:2-3)
--It goes to say that if you live a life of dishonoring your parents (as a general rule) your life will be shortened on this earth. God will cut your life short. It could be considered as an example of a sin unto death.
Right, and I don't believe in eternal security.
In a way that is the flip side of the eternal security thing. If you believe in eternal security, you must believe John is talking about physical death.
These are indeed examples of lives being shortened (or lengthened) by bad or good behavior. But I don't think John had this in mind. John repeatedly uses the phrase "eternal life" as a euphemism for going to Heaven when you die. Life = going to Heaven. Therefore, it would seem that he would use the term "death" in the opposite manner. Death = going to Hell. James makes a similar use of the term "death" in Chapter 5:19-20, although a few of the newer translations, no doubt done by OSAS folks, try to show that as physical death as well.
Yeah, me too, but not because of fear that God would take meout of this life but because of the danger of going to Hell if He did.
I thought you believed in eternal security.
I don't mean to be harsh or too critical here but I don't believe that you can take part of one scripture and ask what it means. I believe that you also need to look at the surrounding scriptures to get the context.
(1Jn 5:15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
(1Jn 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. In context the bolded words are not directed at a child of God.
(1Jn 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
(1Jn 5:18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
The question now turns to who is begotten of God? It is the hidden man of the heart which was made new by the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. Therefore these scriptures point to eternal security.
No, you must have me confused with someone else. I've debated that topic quite a bit here on the BB.
I like what Chuck Swindoll said....."I don't know". :thumbs: My conviction is that it is when a believer crosses the line with God and suffer the consequences of being out of Gods will....... no matter all the pleading in the world God says "no.". If you read the verse before "context is King" it says if we pray anything according to His will....he hears us.
But here is your response:
Does a believer have to fear the danger of going to hell if one believes in eternal security.
If one believes in eternal security there is no fear of going to Hell. But it that belief is wrong, which I maintain it is, then many who think they are going to Heaven despite having lived a reprobate life will be surprised to find themselves in Hell.
Problem with that view though is that our salvation is ;anchored" by God in the Cross of Christ, and his resurrection... NOT in our faith...
Also, Bible states ALL saved in Christ will walk as he walked, so having been redeemed by God, now "bent " to foolow God, not perfect, but as a habit/lifestyle...
IF we have pecome new creations in Christ, been translated from Kingdom of satan into one of Jesus, and that Holy Spirit has sealed us "unto the day of redemption" And that God WILL be able to keep and preserve us blameless unto "that day"...
How can we lose, what God purchased by blood of His Son Jesus?
Good summary points...
believe that the "danger" would be towards either those who believe in eternal security"I do" or not...
IF eternally secured in Christ, than God CAN judge you as being living so reckless a life that bring shame/dishonor to name/cause of Christ, and IF stay unrepentant, God might decide to "call you home"
IF can lose salvation God decides to bring you home in order to avoid you "sinning" your salvation away!
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
"My sheep hear my voice and they follow me. I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. My Father which gave them me is greater than all. No man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
What greater assurances of eternal life/eternal security to we need than the above Scripture (Romans 8:1; John 10:27-29). The believer cannot lose his salvation. He is put in Christ and cannot be taken out of Christ. He is put into the family of God and will never be unborn, once born into God's family. Thus the necessity of the new birth.
If a believer continues in sin God may choose to bring that believer home. That is his prerogative. He did so in the case of the Corinthian believers (1Cor.11:30). He can today also. However, believers do not lose their salvation.
You can judge a person's life all you want.
If you were sitting in judgment of Lot's life you would have condemned him to Hell, but God saw differently. He called him just Lot; that righteous man.
We think we have everything all figured out. The truth is, that no matter how we look at the outward appearance of a man's life only God knows the heart.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
The "reprobate" you condemn, God may not condemn because only God knows his heart. You certainly don't. We don't know if the person is saved and carnal or backslidden; or never saved in the first place. Our duty is to deal with the person's spiritual problems whatever they may be.
Agree with Eternal Security, was just saying that hard to even SEE a case for losing your salvation, as God could choose to "bring you home" in order to avoid that happening!
I'm not judging anyone's life and I would never suggest that any particular person is going to Hell. Only God has that prerogative but there are reprobates and God knows who they are, and He will cut them off and throw them into the fire. John 15:1-6.
Parable of the vine and the branches. John 15:1-6.
Parable of the master who forgave his slave. Matthew 18:21-35.
1 Corinthians 9:27.
The N.T. is full of material that supports conditional security. These are only four examples. For the life of me I can't understand how the concept of eternal security got started. It is so foreign to scripture.
As for God deciding to call someone home, I can't debate it. You see examples of this in the Bible but I haven't discerned any higher mortality rate among the unbelievers, or among believers who have taken to a life of sin. It rains on the just and the unjust.
None of the above Scriptures support "conditional security" which is the same thing as a denial of eternal security or believing that one can lose your salvation.
In each of the above passages the Scripture is directed to believers, but not to losing their salvation. For example in 1Cor.9, he is speaking of service not salvation. In James 5:20 the context is chastisement, a chastisement which results in death. The parable in Mat.18 cannot be made to walk on all fours. It speaks of forgiveness, and must be left there. Remember, parables don't teach doctrine; they illustrate doctrine already taught elsewhere. Another parable in John 15 about the vine and the branches. It speaks of pruning, purifying, but not of losing one's salvation.
There are no examples in the Bible, when all is taken into consideration, that teach that one can lose their salvation.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
Have you surveyed the six billion plus population of the world to find out??
And such is the mantra of those whose theology differs from the plain meaning of scripture. It goes something like this: "I know X to be true, so if a passage says Y it must mean something other than what it appears to say." I find especially intriguing your statement that parables don't teach doctrine, as I have seen that statement used by others here. I guess Jesus just didn't get the memo about OSAS.
I have no problem with this. It's just that you think once you are in Christ Jesus there is no escape. I believe a person is free to remain with Christ or to turn against Him.
No, have you? Of course, people who engage in risky behavior can expect on the average to have a shorter life. This applies to believers and nonbelievers alike. If you are a believer and you engage in car racing, mountain climbing, skydiving and such, you have a heightened risk of dying young.