What do BB Arminians Believe?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 19, 2012.

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  1. Van

    Van
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    I question the premise that "Classical Arminianism" affirms salvation cannot be lost. Jesus said, if you are not for me, you are against me. To dangle the "possibility" of loss of salvation as an incentive to due diligence may seem wise, but the ends do not justify the means.

    Scripture seems clear to me, they go out from us because they are not of us, i.e never born again. Thus you can think you were once saved, and then reject Jesus, but from my side of the street, you were never saved, just another tare spreading falsehood over truth.

    Lets look at the first part of the first sentence, "incorporated into Christ" by "true" faith. Are we put into Christ by our faith or by God putting us there? Who decides whether or not our "faith" is true? Scripture says God does when He credits it as righteousness.

    Do we become partakers of the Spirit when we learn from the gospel, or only when we are sealed in Christ. Just exactly what is meant by this ill defined phrase may underlie the division on the loss of salvation issue.

    The Arminian positions held by various Arminians are:
    a) Salvation might be lost
    b) Salvation can be intentionally lost
    c) Salvation can be unintentionally lost.

    1. Arminians believe Christ died for all mankind, not just for the elect.

    2. Arminians believe in Total Spiritual Inability, but that God has overridden the inability with Prevenient grace.

    3. Arminians believe the grace of God's call through the gospel is resistible, so we feel the tug (i.e. Christ high and lifted up draws all men) but can reject it.

    4. Arminians believe we are born again when we put our faith in Christ. They affirm when we believe we are united with Christ. But they are vague on the mechanism of becoming united, "incorporated in Christ by true faith". It appears they think a person becomes united "automatically" and seem not to address the view that those whose faith God credits as righteousness, are united with Christ by His supernatural act of transferring us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of the Son. My view is we are "incorporated into Christ" by God spiritually transferring us from our separated from God sinful state in Adam, to the Kingdom of the Son when God puts us spiritually in Christ And God takes this action based on crediting our faith as righteousness.

    5. Arminians believe our individual election for salvation is conditioned on our autonomous faith in Christ. The article did not seem to address whether that election was God's before creation, or the person choosing to believe somehow becoming elect when automatically "incorporated" in Christ. In other words, when does God elect us individually, before creation or during our lifetime. And the second question is: Are we elected when God credits our faith and puts us in Christ, or are we elected automatically when we put ourselves in Christ?

    6. Arminians believe believers who have been "incorporated" into Christ are predestined to "final salvation." How that fits with the possibility of loss of salvation seems unclear. On the one hand if we are predestined to final salvation, salvation cannot be lost, and on the other hand we might be predestined to final salvation provided we do not intentionally turn aside.

    7. Arminians either take no position (i.e. possible loss of salvation is not denied) or they believe salvation can be lost by the individual's choice to not persevere in the faith.

    8. Arminians reject penal substitution (code for limited atonement) but affirm penal satisfaction, explained as substitutionary atonement.

    9. Arminians believe God knows the future exhaustively and are willing to ban anyone from their midst that does not agree.

    10. Arminians believe God either causes or allows all things, but does not predestine all things. Therefore humans make autonomous decisions, affirming our culpability for our sins. Arminians do not believe we are predestined to believe. Therefore, God does not predestine everything. "Predestination" can refer to a doctrine such as the Calvinist view, but when I use the word, I simply mean what the word means, which is for God to decide to cause something to occur in the future. Thus God does not cause us to believe, because I agree with the Arminians, God did not predestine us to believe. So God predestines some things, like believers placed spiritually in Christ are then predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son."

    Did not see any response to these questions:

    1) Exactly what does "incorporated in Christ by true faith" mean? Arminians believe we are born again when we put our faith in Christ. They affirm when we believe we are united with Christ. But they are vague on the mechanism of becoming united, "incorporated in Christ by true faith". It appears they think a person becomes united "automatically" and seem not to address the view that those whose faith God credits as righteousness, are united with Christ by His supernatural act of transferring us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of the Son.

    2) Exactly what does being a "partaker of the Spirit" mean? Do we become partakers of the Spirit when we learn from the gospel, or only when we are sealed in Christ?
     
  2. nodak

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    4 point or modifed arminians do not believe salvation can be lost.

    Wesleyan arminians believe it can be lost.

    Classic arminians believe it can be forfeited or given back.

    So let me rephrase that:

    4 points believe you cannot become unsaved after being saved.

    Wesleyans believe you can drift so far into sin as to drift into unbelief and be lost.

    Classic armininians believe you can still knowingly choose to reject Christ and walk away from salvation. They don't worry about drifting from the faith, but hold the possibility of making a choice to deliberately reject Christ after initial salvation.
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    Thanks for the crystal clear explanation.

    Lets set that aside, with the caveat that the four pointers, seem to be more in tune with most Baptists.

    Can you explain how Arminians of any particular flavor, believe we are "incorporated into Christ."
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    So, if I'm understanding Arminianism correctly, one may not just lose his salvation without knowing it's gone. Losing it would involve a purposeful decision to no longer believe.

    I know there are various types of Arminianism, but am I on the right track? I'm being educated here.
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Lets leave the 'loss of salvation" issue behind, for now, and focus on how Arminians believe they are "incorporated into Christ."
     
  6. thegospelgeek

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    I am certainly not a scholar on what defines an Arminian, but am not aware or do not understand your definition of 4 point Arminian. It is my understanding that all Arminians, of which I have always considered myself leaning toward the "classical" bent, believe one can lose their salvation. The differing points are where and how?

    Once again I can not speak for all but I do credit God's "supernatural act of transferring us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of the Son."

    Understand that I am far from a Bible Scholor and quite uneducated on many "definitions" of what determines the various title that we assign to our beliefs.
     
  7. Amy.G

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    So you don't really want to discuss Arminianism. You just want to debunk Calvinism. Gotcha.
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Arminians with eternal security do SAME thing you accuse us cals doing with term "All"!

    bible clearly states that NONE will be lost, that God sealed us with his HS forever, that NOTHING will seperate the saints from love of god in chrsit, that ALl father gave jesus he will raise up, NONE lost!

    Arms must force bible double speak in to get loss of salvation!
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    ALL hold that a sinner MUST be graced by God before they can accept/reject jesus, as unable to do that in themselves apart from god applying grace to their sin state beforehand?

    While NON cals here on BB would state that a sinner still has means in themselves to accept/reject jesus by hearing the Gospel only required?
     
  10. HeirofSalvation

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    Classical Arminianism simply does not "require" a belief that Salvation can be either forfeited or lost...This is simply not true. It is fair to say that one can be an Arminian and believe that Salvation can be lost or forfeited....It is also fair to say the one can be an Arminian and believe that Once one is saved, one is always "saved" and is therefore "sealed in Christ" and cannot lose their Salvation...Anyone who teaches that "Arminianism" rightly understood requires a belief that salvation is either "forfeitable" or "losable" is lying. A "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" point of view is consistent with Arminian doctrine. It is the position I personally take.

    See this: http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=Are_You_an_Arminian_and_Dont_Even_Know_It

    For those too lazy to do the "ground-work"...I will quote the relevant portion...as regards "OSAS" or "Eternal Security"...

     
  11. HeirofSalvation

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    Simply not true....One can classify themselves faithfully as an "Arminian" and agree with none of these....
     
  12. Don

    Don
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    Thank you, HeirofSalvation. You've pretty much summed up my position on the subject as well.
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    One thing many people fail to understand about most non-Calvinistic Baptists, is that we do affirm the effectual power of God's regenerative work, just as the Calvinists do. Faith is the means through which this effectual work is accomplished by the sealing of the Spirit. The difference between the two camps in not the effectuality of that working, but the order.

    This is what biblical predestination is really all about. God has predestined to effectually adopt, conform and ultimately SAVE whosoever believes in Christ.
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    Not to put too fine a point on it, but no one claimed the list was exhaustive. Note it did not include the "four point" or modified Arminian position or your Arminian/Molinist position, which is simply Calvinism in camouflage.

    The question which I have asked is how do Arminians believe they are "incorporated into Christ." One poster said God puts them in Christ but did not discuss the basis of the action. And for sure, there are other views, i.e. the Corporate Election Arminian view. Anyone care to explain that one?
     
  15. Van

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    Hi Skandelon, apparently you are saying when God puts a person in Christ, their regeneration is irresistible! Now if you would just describe the basis God uses to put a person in Christ, for only after a person is spiritually in Christ are they "sealed in Christ."
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    So in your view of it, the Lord decided to have the Church from eternity past elected, and when a person decides to accept jesus, God places them into that Bofy, predestined is the church body, not each person in it on an individual basis?
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    think he is saying that God predestined that the Church would be elected, and that sinners who believe in jesus by 'free will" God places in it!
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    Do you hold that as a sinner, men are not able to place faith in jesus UNLESS God enables them to beable by applying grace to them? That God chose to apply Grace to ALL sinners equally, then up to us to accept/reject freely?
     
  19. 12strings

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    For this point, Would not speaking about the "possibility" of loss of salvation be exactly the right way to speak about the issue, if in fact one is not convinced either way. What else could they say? To take a hard stance on either side when one is not convinced would not be honest...Perhaps this was the early arminian position, simply to say to the calvinists: Are you really so sure about this?


    [/QUOTE]


    More on this later maybe, Gotta run....
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    More on this later maybe, Gotta run....[/QUOTE]

    There appeared to be a form of "Corporate Election" under Old covenant for isreal as the chosen nation/people, but under New Covenant, each christian has been individually elected and chosen by God to be saved in christ!

    Glad God chose to be "personally involved" in saving me!
     
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