What do Preterists believe about 2 Peter 3

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bronconagurski, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    2 Peter 3:7-13 (HCSB)
    7 But by the same word, the present heavens and earth are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
    8 Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
    9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
    10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that ⌊day⌋ the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.
    11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, ⌊it is clear⌋ what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness
    12 as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God. The heavens will be on fire and be dissolved because of it, and the elements will melt with the heat.
    13 But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.

    Has the promise in verse 9 and then again in verse 13 been fulfilled? If so, when?
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/Bible_NT/Peter_Second/2peter_03-10.html

    John Owen
    "On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-

    '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judgment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.

    '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.

    First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly."* (John Owen on Second Peter)

    John Lightfoot

    "The destruction of Jerusalem is phrased in Scripture as the destruction of the whole world; and Christ's coming to her in judgment, as his coming to the last judgment.* Therefore, those dreadful things, spoken of in Matt. 24:29,30 and 31, are but borrowed expressions, to set forth the terms of that judgment the more.. v.30 - "then shall they see" - not any visible appearance of Christ, or of the cross, in the clouds (as some have imagined); but, whereas* Jews would not own Christ before for the Son of Man, or for the Messias, then by the vengeance that he should execute upon them, they and all the world should see an evident sign, and it was so.* This, therefore, is called "his coming," and his coming in his kingdom." [A Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles, ed. Rev. John Rogers Pitman (London: J.F. Dove, 1825), p.141]

    "That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).

    "(Peter, in the second epistle,) sets forth the destruction of that cursed Nation and their City in those terms that Christ had done, Matt. 24. and that the Scripture doth elsewhere, Deut. 32.22,23.24. Jer. 4.23. namely as the destruction of the whole world, The heavens passing away, the elements melting, and the earth burnt up, &c.* And accordingly speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, from Isa. 65.17. a new state of the Church under the Gospel among the Gentiles, when this old world of the Jews state should be dissolved." (Works, Vol. I., p. 338.)
     
  3. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    The very idea that this scripture is talking about Judaism or is confined only to Jerusalem is ridiculous, imo. Some people have too much time on their hands to dream up this stuff. And the church is the new heaven and earth. Right. Isaiah 65:17 is talking about how Jerusalem will be restored after the return from the Babylonian captivity. There is no comparison to be made to 2 Peter 3.
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Then perhaps you can explain this verse:

    13 But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.

    If Is. 65 & 66 are not the basis for the New H&E, then where is the promise Peter is referring to found?
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Is.65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

    Congrats, you agree with those who believe the New H&E found in Is. 65 is not to be taken literally but is a Hebrew idiom much like Lightfoot explained.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    looks as if Paul quotes Isa 65 :1 in Romans10

    65 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

     
  7. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess I am a partial preterist. I believe these verses to be describing a literal event that will take place when Christ physically returns. When he returns, the "tares" will be taken out by the angels first & then "wheat" will be gathered. After this, the very elements that make up the universe will be destroyed with a fervent heat & the universe will be recreated. Next, Christ and all believers will take up residence on the new earth to live with Him eternally. The 70ad event was not the physical second coming of Christ. It was merely the destruction of Israel & the finality of the Old Law.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    :thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    :thumbs::thumbs:


    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which one are we to believe, that Christ came back at A.D. 70, or that He did not. I believe He did not. But the new heaven and earth will not come about until after the 1000 year millenial reign when you will be proved wrong about Israel, and Christ reigns here on this earth and the nation of Israel as a whole will be saved when they look upon the one they pierced. Paul states very clearly that God has not set Israel aside forever, no matter how you people try and spiritualize those verses.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,552
    Likes Received:
    273
    “The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” C. Hodge

    7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision
    8 (for he that wrought for Peter unto the apostleship of the circumcision wrought for me also unto the Gentiles); Gal 2

    Well, Peter WAS the apostle to the circumcision, you know.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    Bronconagurski
    What you believe on that determines if you are a partial preterist, a full preterist, or a futurist. I believe he came in judgement upon Jerusalem as he said he would.I do not believe it was a literal second coming. I believe that happens on the last day, as will the rapture;

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day


    Bski...I would be fine with that if it happened that way.I used to think that was the teaching, until I looked at the other views more closely.


    many unsaved Jews were not alive when Jesus was pierced, those in 70 ad were alive at that time. What verse links the 1000yr period to an earthly reign.....rev 20 speaks of the term 1000 yrs,,,but does not speak of an earthly reign, but a heavenly reign as Jesus reigns right now,

    We do not spiritualize those verses, we just see that Jesus is The true Israel, The true tabernacle, the New Exodus, and we are in Him by Spirit baptism...jew and gentile one new man.....Christian Israel, The church that assembles on the last day....very literally.

    Bski...what does verse 18 mean here...Jesus tells the apostles he will soon go to heaven...what does he mean when he says....I will come to you, i will not leave you comfortless????
    the Spirit is promised to them...yes....but He says i will come to you.....How does Jesus come to the apostles???
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I am in essential agreement with you!
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Interesting that you couldn't answer my question on the topic you started.
     
  15. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    2Pe 1:1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    Peter is often considered the apostle to the "Jews"....but neither I Peter nor second Peter was addressed to Jews, but were rather General Epistles to all of the saved, and more specifically those in Asia-Minor:

    I Peter is similarly addressed this way:

    1Pe 1:1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


    First Peter and 2nd Peter are inextricably interrelated:

    2Pe 3:1 ¶ This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

    ....and addressing First Peter almost specifically to gentiles rules out Owen's...studied obfuscations and confusions....Peter was writing to everyone. Owens worked extremely hard to come up with a uniquely "Jewish" application for these verses. In the real world, Owen's arguments are what is known as "Special-Pleading"....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading.....Lightfoot worked a little harder to justify what was an otherwise completely unwarranted restriction of those passages, but not hard enough. There is not sufficient reason to relegate what are obviously general statements about a general coming which will effect the entire Earth (in epistles written to a general audience BTW)...to a specific people-group described in historical time.

    from this cite: http://www.studyyourbibleonline.com/bible-study/2-peter/when-and-to-whom-was-2-peter-written/

    With regards to the OP..... the chapter clearly tells us this:
    2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

    Were the "LAST DAYS" he spoke of to come within the next 2 to 6 years???? No, negative. There is no reason to think so....the scattered audience to whom he spoke (in Asia, and not Palestine) would have NO USE for Peter's ill-concieved epistle with this explanation...nor any time left to apply it's principles were the Preterist explanations to be adhered to anyway.

    Should they take a Boeing 747 to warn the obstinate Jews or merely buy advertising time on cable T.V? What were they expected to do? Sail the Meditteranean to Palestine and warn the hard-hearted Jews of their imminent doom? No, this is "Special-Pleading"....and merely glancing at the general audience and time of the epistle rules out the studied confusion explained by Owens and Lightfoot.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,552
    Likes Received:
    273
    And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

    And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23

    Bronconagurski, do you believe the disobedient Jews of today live in a heaven and earth of literal brass and iron? Or is this metaphorical? Symbolic? I understand this, do you? I get the point, do you?

    What hinders you from seeing that if one is in Christ that one is a new creature of the new heaven and the new earth of the new covenant?

    Bronconagurski, how would you justify literlizing the passages from Peter and not these from the OT that are dealing directly with the Jews?
     
    #16 kyredneck, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,552
    Likes Received:
    273
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1 Pet 1:1



    Thank you, my point exactly in a previous post. Peter was the apostle to the Jews.
     
  18. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which ones? I can't spend 24/7 here. Also, the point of the OP was to get preterists opinions. Give me the questions again and I will answer them unless they are unscriptural.
     
    #18 Bronconagurski, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  19. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    Maybe....but you ignored this part of the passage:
    1Pe 1:1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    Jews are not "Strangers" to Peter. Nor did they specifically (at that time) suffer any "dispersion" similar to what existed prior to the accounts in Ezra or the 70 A.D. fall of Jerusalem.

    2Pe 1:1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    And anyone....even if he referenced Jews initially, is included in those who have "obtained like precious faith"....Peter is the "Apostle to the Jews" (historically understood anyway) in part because of his HERESY of being a Judaizer... In what other ways was he the "Apostle to the Jews?" According to Scripture...not certain traditions. We thank Almighty God that Paul "Withstood him to the face" on this one....Peter was a veritable heretic, according to the Word of God, about the relationship between elect Jew and elect Gentile...but he got it right when he wrote these books....and he adressed them to ALL, not just Jews.
     
    #19 HeirofSalvation, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,552
    Likes Received:
    273
    7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision
    8 (for he that wrought for Peter unto the apostleship of the circumcision wrought for me also unto the Gentiles); Gal 2

    There's nothing 'heretical' about it, he was indeed the apostle to the Jews, just as Paul was the apostle to the nations.

    All true Jews are 'strangers' (sojourners) in a strange land. Their citizenship is in heaven, not here on the earth.

    Perhaps you would like to answer the question of post #16:

    "And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

    And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23

    Do you believe the disobedient Jews of today live in a heaven and earth of literal brass and iron, or is this intended to be metaphorical or symbolic?"

    [edit to add] But then again, who knows? You may be 'Bronconagurski'.
     
    #20 kyredneck, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012

Share This Page

Loading...