What do you believe about the rapture and why?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Jun 23, 2011.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    I have been taking a course (premillenial dispensationalism) and most of the folks in the course hold a pretribulational rapture. That is that the end time order of events will begin by the rapture of the church. Following the rapture of the church there will begin a 7 year tribulation (including the restrainer removed and anti-christ revealed) period that will end with the second advent of Christ. Upon Christ’s second coming he will judge the anti-Christ, begin a literal 1,000 year reign on earth. After the 1,000 years their will come a final resurrection and judgment ushering in the eternal state.

    I have been convinced of a pretribulation rapture through the course (and had no opinion prior to the course). The arguments and Scriptural usage seem to support the pretrib rapture as opposed to other views. Some other views include:

    1. Mid-tribulation rapture
    2. post-tribulation rapture
    3. partial rapture
    4. pre-wrath rapture

    My goal here is to get a more direct argument from adherents of different views and see how you handle your view. I am by no means an expert in this area, so I will try to be as open but honest as possible.

    Please be as detailed as you can using Scripture if possible to defend your view.

    Thanks
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    I was taught that at first.....but now believe the rapture happens on the last day....mostly because Jesus speaks of raising people on the last day several times in jn 6.
    the pre-mill system does not hold up scripturally.....although they offer verses...when you examine the verses they do not fit, but rather we are told to believe they fit...I could give many examples of this.

    in other words...recently some premill brethren have posted the view that links random verses together link a house of cards..

    1thess 4:13-17
    1thess5:9
    rev3:10
    rev.4:1

    then they say see...here it is. when you look at these verses they stand seperate from the explanation given.

    for example
    1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    we are told this represents the rapture of the church...there is the sound of the trumpet,,,,,andthen the church is not mentioned any more in rev.4-19

    This is simply not true....the church is mentioned all through the book, and John himself is caught up in prophetic vision.

    1thess 4 is dealing with what happens when believers have died already

    1thess 5 we are not appointed to wrath...yes...true....In Christ we are no longer under God's wrath...no rapture here though.

    rev3 is supposed to be a rapture verse...but the promise is no different than any promise to any of the overcomers in the other churches mentioned
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2011
  3. kyredneck

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    That's about the way I see it. (1 Cor 15 too)
     
    #3 kyredneck, Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2011
  4. Old Union Brother

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    me too!!! only I call a general resurrection
     
  5. revmwc

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    While the previous poster to mine see it as amil, preterist and other views I see the Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view.

    Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
    12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
    13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Not the promise in verse 10 those who keep the word of His patience, that would be repentence to salvation as 2 Peter 3 speaks of God being longsuffering to us-ward. Now you see see it argued here wellthat was only for the church at Philidelphia but not verse 13, He that hat an ear let HIM hear waht the Spirit sayeth to the churches, cane you read and comprehend the message to the churches? If so then the promise is yours to claim, also keep in mind that Revelation 3:19 and 20 are used to apply today and yet some say verse 10 only applies to that church. Also verse 11 says I come quickly here we need to ask the question does that mean "quickly" in mans limited view of the word or "quickly" by a God not limited by a timetable? Keeping in mind again 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
    In verse 8 God says that to Him 1 day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as a day, to Him quickly is by His timetable and not ours. Keep in mind this too 2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    Many are scoffing today at His coming Peter says it will come as theif in the night when noone expects it, If as the Post-mil and those who see the church not being taken until after the rapture then here is the problem, Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    Here we see that the Armies are gathered to fight against Christ who is returning how would they know He was returning at that particular time if the rapture had no occured 7 years prior and were marking the time as their leader Satan knows exactly what God has said.
    Given Revelation 3:10 the promise to keep the church from the time of tempatation is to keep the believers from the tribulation.
     
  6. revmwc

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    To continue:
    1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Say He will come for His church at with the sound of the Trumpet and we will meet Him in air 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Now Revelation 4:1 as Iconolist alluded to says this, 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    Then John says he sees this, 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    The 24 elders not several things about them:
    1 They have crowns upon their heads

    2 they are clothed in white raiment

    Now let's see what the church is promised.

    First off 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The Church receives their rewards at the Judgement seat or Bema seat judgement not the Great White Throne Judgement notice point 1 above about the 24 elders. They have rewards. If you read Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    There are no rewards given out at this judgement, in fact those judge here end up in the Lake of Fire for not having their name recorded in the book of life (i.e. they were not saved). So the rewards given in 1 Corinthians 3 are at a time other than this judgement. We see the 24 elders with crowns upon thier heads.
     
  7. revmwc

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    Continued:
    Notice number 2 in my previous post
    They are clothed in with raiment, look at the promise for the church (i.e. the saved in our time)
    Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
    Those who overcome, the believer overcomes the second death, will be clothed in white raiment. Notice in Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Notice in verse 14 the Army that comes with Christ is clothed in fine linen WHITE and clean, that would be the Bride, the Church coming with Him as He comes at the 2nd Coming. Remember 1 Thessaloninas 4: the very end state in verse 17 "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Whereever He goes we go after He has Caught the church up with Him 7 years prior. Revelation 4 shows the church in Heaven before the tribulation is revealed in the balance of Johns vision. Any saints on earth after that point arre Tribualtion saints, they will be saved after the church is taken out. With the Trib being a Jewish age the people who are saved will be saved just as they were in the Jewish age before and in our age, by faith in Christ. They won't have the Holy Spirit filling and indwelling them but He will come upon them as He will just as He did with Samson and others in the O.T.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Iconoclast said,'...recently some premill brethren have posted the view that links random verses together link a house of cards....", and he's dead on spot; soooo much of what the premil sensationalists promote concerning 'The Rapture' is just that, a house of cards. Your reference to John in Revelation is exactly that if you're trying to build a case for some sort of 'premil rapture', and you're grossly misrepresenting what is presented to us here. It seems to have been a common occurrence with his prophets to have been transported 'in the Spirit':

    2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
    3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
    4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12

    39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing.
    40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8

    I was in the Spirit on the Lord`s day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10

    ....I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter. Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne; Rev 4:1,2

    And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3

    And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Rev 21 :10

    12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of Jehovah from his place.
    14 So the Spirit lifted me up, and took me away; and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; and the hand of Jehovah was strong upon me. Ezek 3

    And he put forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the gate of the inner court that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. Ezek 8:3

    1 Moreover the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of Jehovah`s house, which looketh eastward: and behold, at the door of the gate five and twenty men; and I saw in the midst of them Jaazaniah the son of Azzur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people.
    24 And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me. Ezek 11

    The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of Jehovah, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Ezek 37:1

    In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, whereon was as it were the frame of a city on the south. Ezek 40:2

    And the Spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. Ezek 43:5

    And it will come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of Jehovah will carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he will slay me: but I thy servant fear Jehovah from my youth. 1 Ki 18:12

    And they said unto him, Behold now, there are with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master, lest the Spirit of Jehovah hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Ki 2:16
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. J.D.

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    I haven't decided exactly what the rapture IS yet, but I am certain that it is NOT the removal of the Church from the Earth.
     
  11. kyredneck

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    What the sensationalists call 'The Rapture' I would call 'The Transformation', when, at the last day, at the last trump, after the dead have been raised, those still alive will be equipped with the incorruptable body. jmho.
     
  12. revmwc

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    There is a hymn that says something about with rapture or something, which I think means happiness. Now the catching up of the church is quite clear in the scripture.

    rap·ture noun \ˈrap-chər\
    Definition of RAPTURE
    1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
    2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
    3often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology
    — rap·tur·ous \ˈrap-chə-rəs, ˈrap-shrəs\ adjective
    — rap·tur·ous·ly adverb
    — rap·tur·ous·ness noun
    See rapture defined for English-language learners »
    See rapture defined for kids »


    Here is the definition to help you decide what rapture is.

    I believe the catching up or as the greek word snatching away means in 1 Thessaloninas would probably fit the 3 definition in Webster: the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology.

    Hope this helps you figure it out.
     
  13. revmwc

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    So let's see you don't think we should bring scripture upon scripture to prove a doctrinal belief.

    So if we wanted to show someone how to be saved we shouldn't use the following to prove how one can be saved according to that concept:
    John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Then John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
    Then we can go to Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Then of course salvation can be seen:Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    According to what you are saying this shouldn't be done to prove how basic soteriology works. That is bringing scripture upon scripture to show how God's word comes together to PROVE His Plans for mankind.

    I so no pattern or no doctrine you were trying to prove selecting random verses that have nothing to do with a subject proves you have no concept of teaching precept upon precept line upon line.

    Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
    14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

    I believe that Isaiah is saying we must pull together verses that prove other verse precept (teaching) upon precept, Line upon Line will prove the word of the Lord to be true. Basic bible teaching principles to bring doctrinal truths out is not selecting random verses to try and prove apoint but verses that prove other verses and show what the Holy Spirit was revealing to us.

    It is something How you can't disprove how these verse mesh toghther to prove the precept so you act as if they are randomly selected by pulling random verses in which you are not stating a doctrine you are trying to prove.
     
  14. JesusFan

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    Would that be BEFORE or AFTER the Second Coming of Jesus back to earth though?
     
  15. lastday

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    The Hour of Trial

    Mel's Response:

    There is no proof that the "HOUR" of Trial is more than 60 Minutes!
    Jesus restricts the entire "DAY" of Wrath to a single 12-Hour Day!!
    He also states that this Day includes the HOUR of Trial that must
    "come suddenly, on the Day He appears...coming on all inhabitants
    on all the face of the all the earth"!!!

    These very words appear in Luke 17:34-36 AND Rev.3:10-11 and apply specifically to the "DAY and HOUR" that Christ appears in glory with ALL
    the Saints. He raises up ALL believers on the last DAY". John 6:38-40,44,54
    Mel Miller
    www.lastday.net
     
  16. revmwc

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    Used in Revelation 3:10 for hour,

    Strong's Number: 5610 w¸ra
    Original Word Word Origin
    w¸ra apparently a primary word
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    Hora ho'-rah
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    Noun Feminine 9:675,1355
    Definition
    a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
    of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
    the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
    a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun)
    any definite time, point of time, moment

    So the Tribulation of 7 years is a definite time period and the greek word translated hour in revelation 3:10 is speaking of a definite time John and of course Daniel show it to be 7 years.

    Luke 17:34 in that night the interlinear state the word for night is:

    Strong's Number: 3571 nu/c
    Original Word Word Origin
    nu/c a primary word
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    Nux noox
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    Noun Feminine 4:1123,661
    Definition
    night
    metaph. the time when work ceases
    the time of death
    the time for deeds of sin and shame
    the time of moral stupidity and darkness
    the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber

    The time when work ceases or the time of sin and shame, or moral stupiditty and darkness a time when the weary and the drunken are sleeping. That would be like the tribulation and the end when Christ returns.

    So the one taken is the unbeliever who is seen in
    Revelation 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    That is salin with the sword.
     
  17. kyredneck

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    This has to be one of the most off topic incomprehensible unintelligible rambling posts I've ever had directed at me. Where are you coming from? What are you talking about? Are you doing drugs?

    ....and if you think 'precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little' is a good and desirable thing, then you're the one who has no concept of how God teaches. Isa 28:13-16 is a NEGATIVE undesirable consequence, not a positive one.

    When the Spirit teaches it comes in like a flood, and NOT by 'precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little'.
     
  18. J.D.

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    Right. Jehova Witnesses are masters at proof-texting. Anyone can proove any wild theory by proof-texting. It takes good exegisis and hermeneutics to discover the truth (context and consistency).
     
  19. revmwc

    revmwc
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    I am still trying to figure out kyrednecks rambling that started it all.
     
  20. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Looks like it was fairly clear to you after all considering the rambling it was directed at.
     

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