What do you believe?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LandonL, May 23, 2003.

  1. LandonL

    LandonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, all this protestant/catholic bickering is driving me nuts. I just want a specific yes or no answer from you catholic apologists out there on the following questions. These may sound basic, but IN MY OPINION, these are the central doctrines of the Christian faith, and if we agree here then everything else is trivial.

    1. Does your church believe that the Bible is the true, infallible, inspired Word of God?(And regardless of the disagreements about the actual canon... unless I'm mistaken, your canon includes my 66 book Protestant canon, correct? If I'm wrong, correct me. If I'm right, then it's really not that big of a deal, because even if we're wrong we still have scripture, just less of it than you.)

    2. Does your church believe in one eternal, uncreated God; existent in three persons(the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit); who created all things; who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

    3. Does your church believe in the Christ, Jesus, Yeshua; the eternally existent, uncreated Son of God, who stepped out of Heaven into human form; who was born of a Virgin; who lived a sinless life; who fulfilled all the prophecies of the Jewish messiah; who suffered and bled and died by crucifixion as a ransom for the souls of all mankind; who on the third day was resurrected, appeared to the disciples, and ascended into Heaven; who now sits at the right hand of God and will someday return to judge both the living and the dead?

    4. Does your church believe in the Holy Spirit; eternal, uncreated, the third person of the Godhead; who inspired fallible men to write infallible scripture; who enables men to understand the scriptures; who calls men to the saving Grace of Christ; who indwells every member of the body of Christ; who is a deposit guaranteeing the salvation of those He has regenerated; who holds the church together?

    5. Does your church believe that the redemptive grace through faith of the Christ is the ONLY way to salvation?

    I'm sorry to have to come right out and ask, but it's hard for me to get a bearing on what some people are thinking on this board, baptist or catholic or otherwise.
     
  2. LaRae

    LaRae
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    1. Does your church believe that the Bible is the true, infallible, inspired Word of God?(And regardless of the disagreements about the actual canon... unless I'm mistaken, your canon includes my 66 book Protestant canon, correct? If I'm wrong, correct me. If I'm right, then it's really not that big of a deal, because even if we're wrong we still have scripture, just less of it than you.)

    ## YES barring the issues of the books that were removed [​IMG]

    2. Does your church believe in one eternal, uncreated God; existent in three persons(the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit); who created all things; who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

    ##YES afterall the Catholic Church (under guidance of the Holy Spirit) defined the Trinity for all Christians. :D

    3. Does your church believe in the Christ, Jesus, Yeshua; the eternally existent, uncreated Son of God, who stepped out of Heaven into human form; who was born of a Virgin; who lived a sinless life; who fulfilled all the prophecies of the Jewish messiah; who suffered and bled and died by crucifixion as a ransom for the souls of all mankind; who on the third day was resurrected, appeared to the disciples, and ascended into Heaven; who now sits at the right hand of God and will someday return to judge both the living and the dead?

    ## YES


    4. Does your church believe in the Holy Spirit; eternal, uncreated, the third person of the Godhead; who inspired fallible men to write infallible scripture; who enables men to understand the scriptures; who calls men to the saving Grace of Christ; who indwells every member of the body of Christ; who is a deposit guaranteeing the salvation of those He has regenerated; who holds the church together?

    ## YES and NO regarding...obviously not all men are able to understand scripture or there wouldn't be all the various denominations floating around. God never intended to have a divided Church.

    5. Does your church believe that the redemptive grace through faith of the Christ is the ONLY way to salvation?

    ## YES


    The Catechism outlines exactly what the Catholic Church teaches....there are online versions out there that you can read if you care to.

    Also if you haven't ever read the Nicene Creed this outlines quite clearly what Catholics believe.


    LaRae
     
  3. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm curious as to why you ask these questions of Catholic only.

    On this board I have seen Baptists who do not believe in the Trinity.

    I have seen Baptists who believe that the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of Jesus" not a distinct Person of the Trinity.

    I have seen Baptists that say that other writings of the Apostles not included in the Bible may also be divinely inspired and so should be included in Scripture.

    Perhaps your questions should first be asked of Baptists to see if Baptists are in agreement.

    Finally, I do not agree with your premise that every thing else is trivial.

    Ron
     
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    NOT TRUE! The Catholic Church, like all who can read, "discovered" the truth of the Trinity in the writings of Apostles who predate the formation of "the Catholic Church by a 3 centuries. The Trinity is not an invention of the Catholic Church. Give credit where credit is due!
     
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    God does not have a divided church! The true church of Jesus Christ is comprised of the spirits of all men who have living faith in Jesus Christ. The true church of Jesus Christ has no boundaries, has no human leadership, is not contained within the stone walls of a building, cannot be prevailed against, and is eagerly awaiting the return of the Christ to remove it from this world prior to God raining his wrath upon this world.

    If you do not know this, then I strongly suggest you take an extended vacation from the Catholic church, take off your Catholic blinders, pickup and read a Non-Catholic version of the bible, especially the new testament, look for clues to the true nature of God! Jesus give us wonderful insight into the Father.

    A helpful little 100, 5" x 8" page easy to read book by A.W. Tozer titled "Knowledge of the Holy" is a really good starting place.

    Billy Graham's book "The Holy Spirit" is another very helpful book.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Landon,

    The RC answer will of course be "yes" to all the above. If you want to get to the "Core" differences, then frame two of the questions above in this way.

    #1. Believing in the Bible As God's Inspired Word - DO you recommend that non-Catholics go to IT as THE infallible standard by which ALL doctrine (even Catholic doctrine) is to be judged? DO you affirm that IF a Catholic or non-Catholic finds that this ONE standard of ALL faith and doctrine shows Catholic doctrine to be in error - they should reject the traditions and teachings of the RCC that are shown to be in error?

    #5 Believing in salvation by Grace through Faith - DO you agree that once a person comes to Christ they are SAVED? Do you agree that at that moment they are fully justified? Do you agree that ALL Christians are SAVED by the Gospel of the New Covenant and that the New Covenant IS NOT limited to the Catholic Mass ("This cup is the New Covenant in My blood").

    You might also ask -

    #6. Do you agree that Christians are to pray to God and God alone?

    #7. Do you agree that Purgatory is not found in any of the 66 books of the Bible?

    #8. Do you agree that the ONLY reference to "HOLY Father" in ALL of scripture - is shown to be a title for God the Father? (as Christ used that term in John 17)

    #9. Do you agree that Christ "IS THE ONE foundation" of the church according to 1Cor 3:11 and that "That Petra is Christ" 1Cor 10:4 upon which the church is built?

    #10 Do you agree that God was Mary's Savior from Sin - just as she states "I rejoice in God my Savior"? Luke 1:46-47.

    But as you note - Catholics do accept the doctrine of the Trinity and we can certainly be happy about that indeed we may applaud them for retaining that teaching.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    0
    "But as you note - Catholics do accept the doctrine of the Trinity and we can certainly be happy about that indeed we may applaud them for retaining that teaching."

    Something I have found is rather optional among SDA's. Tritheism and Jesus a lesser God is not uncommon in SDA Circles. And I have seen them deny that Jesus was eternal God, saying that he really did died in body and soul after his death on the cross. Now I am sure Bob will jump all over me and say that I said Jesus did not die on the Cross. He does like to twist things so.

    Of course they also believe in Soul Sleep and that hell is just getting hot for a few seconds and then your dust. But denial of eternal hell? Well that's a rather minor thing from Bob's perspective I suppose. Shall I go on. Perhaps later. Sorry for the sarcasm today people but Catholicism being bashed from all sides day in and day out while everyone else is just one big happy family excercising their soul liberty gets a little old.

    Blessings Bob.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The published document "The 27 Fundamental Beliefs" of Seventh-day Adventist SHOWS explicitly the acceptance of the Triune God - 3 in one - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. With a hierarchy in the Godhead just as Christ describes it in John 16. That statement is voted on and approved by the entire SDA denomination and affirmed by voting representatives world wide every 5 years. It is truly the "most representative" statement of any body of believers on the planet.

    If you are referencing that - then you are correct.

    If you are also wanting to speak of the fact that SDAs believe in the Rev 14:10 concept that the wicked in the lake of fire are suffering "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones" - you are correct there as well. We believe that it all happens IN the presence of Christ AND of the saints. Every bit of it.

    Or if you are referencing the fact that we accept the 1Thess 4 statement that the saints who have died - are in fact "the Dead in Christ" and it is the "Dead in Christ" that rise first. And that these are those who are "asleep" 1Thess 4:14 You are correct again. Nice going!

    (I so enjoy admitting to the obvious).

    But I "notice" that you did not answer the "core difference questions" posted above.

    Care to come out and state your views?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  10. D28guy

    D28guy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,713
    Likes Received:
    0
    I feel led to bring up a couple of things.

    A catholic will answer with a resounding NO! to this question...

    "Do you believe a person is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

    (That is the gospel, by the way)

    Also, when the statement was given regarding the word of God, a catholic will say no, if you ask if they believe it is our only authoritative, inerrant standard for truth.

    And finally, LaRae said this...

    That is completly false. The doctrine that has been called the "trinity" is given to the body of Christ by God Himself, since it is taught in the scriptures that God wrote. All that men have given us is the term "trinity", which is the only part of the doctrine that isnt necesarry, or all that important. Its just a word we use.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  11. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Eve did not Give birth to the first Adam, but instead was a pain in his side. She was His wife (Sorry ladies couldn't help it!).

    The Roman Church is not the bride of Christ. You saying it is so does not make it so!

    So just how do you see EVE as the OLD Covenant and the Roman church as the New covenant?

    Well I guess the Roman church is like Eve in the Garden, easily beguiled, and sinful.

    Why is it I can see the sun reflected by the moon but cannot see the SON reflected by the Church? I know the Son personally!

    I have no problem with your "typology", it is wishful thinking.

    IF the Catholic faith is human faith in the one and only Living God and no others, then I have no problem with Catholic Faith. But you keep insisting on making connections that are wishful thinking at best.
     
  12. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    IF the Catholic faith is human faith in the one and only Living God and
    no others, then I have no problem with Catholic Faith. But you keep insisting
    on making connections that are wishful thinking at best.


    Yes, the unity that we all strive for, the one church, one faith, brotherhood,
    same spirit, whatever we may call it.......is nothing more than the Godmindedness
    that each of us has as the Holy Spirit indwells us when we first believe.

    Even Catholics, with their display of uniqueness and their claims of superiority, are
    still subject to the news that Christ brought to earth with him.....and the question:

    "Who do you say that I am" ?

    Once that is answered in a person's heart, then the unity that we have as belonging
    to the brotherhood of Jesus Christ will become evident in our works, prayers,
    intents and our lives.

    To depart from that "first love" gives way for a cancer to grow in our spiritual
    hearts....one that will replace Jesus Christ with something more material / more
    physical that allows our greed and our pride to feed on. The ugly head that
    rises might have a name. I think you get the drift.

    A prideful heart is an abomination to the Lord.

    Why do we need to worship Jesus via the Catholic Church, or the 2x2 way or
    the Methodist avenue....?

    Why can't we just worship Jesus via the Holy Spirit.!!

    I have to sing for a good friend's funeral on Tuesday. A nurse prayed with
    him as he was dying and she asked him who he would see in heaven. He
    said "Jesus, of course". He was not a church going man, but he had Jesus
    in his heart and his life displayed it. He'd heard the Gospel.

    Have a happy and safe Memorial weekend .
     
  13. GH

    GH
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2002
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Landon,

    As a member of the church of the firstborn, what is it that YOU believe. What has the Spirit shown YOU.

    We often repeat and repeat what others have told us - regurgitation after regurgitation of old, decayed manna. What is He saying to YOU now?

    Go outside of the camp and meet Him there one on one, you will return leaning on the BELOVED alone. Try it, you won't be disappoined [​IMG]

    Love to you and all in Christ, GH
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ed -
    Absolutely.


    Ok - then try not to be too disappointed when the non-RC finds that the Bible contradicts RC doctrine - and when the RC finds that same fact - they join non-RC denominations.

    Nope. That is not my problem. My problem is that you can seldom get Catholics to exegete anything - let alone show that correct exegesis would support their views.

    I would settle for just having a discussion based on exegeting "the details" in the text - I don't insist that we must agree - but I would like to find some Catholic inclination to exegete something.

    There is in fact NO reference to Mary as ... "Holy Mother"

    As "Mother of God"

    As "Queen of Heaven"

    As "Co-redeemer with Christ"

    As "All powerful"

    As "sinless like Christ"

    NOR a single NT instance of a prayer to Mary after her death - not even by John who outlived her by decades.

    No reference to Mary as "the ark of the New Covenant" in all of scripture.

    No reference to Mary as "Eve" in all of the NT.

    No reference to Mary as "the Moon"

    Thanks for the list that we do NOT find any NT author applying to Mary.

    Ed --

    Of course not, because the Bible teaches no such thing as salvation by "faith alone." At least, not in the way YOU mean it.


    So your answer is "NO" we do not believe "You are Saved by Grace through Faith - and NOT of works lest anyone should boast" Eph 2:8

    And does your "no" also extend to that part of the question above regarding non-Catholics being saved by the New Covenant IF the New Covenant is DEFINEd as "The New Covenant in My blood - the Catholic MASS"??

    Ed --
    Do rebellious children receive inheritances? Are covenantal blessings, such as inheritances, given to children who live in disobedience? Not according to a biblical covenant. Covenants have terms and oaths/sanctions. Only obedient, covenant keepers inherit blessings. Disobedient children are disinherited.


    So you DO consider non-Catholics to be barred from the New Covenant "IN MY BLOOD" since you restrict that to the Catholic Mass??

    Ed -- Where does it say that?

    So then your answer to number 6 is "NO" ??

    Ed --

    I can show you where believers prayed to the saints in glory, beginning with our own Lord on the Mt. of Transfiguration.


    Wrong. NO prayer TO Moses or TO Elijah is recorded as taking place on the moutn of transfiguration.

    IF Catholics claim that Moses and Elijah "APPEAR TO THEM" and that they then TALK DIRECTLY to them face to face - as we see in Matt 17 - that is not prayer - it is direct face to face communication. So far - I am not aware of any Catholic claiming to have experienced such a miracle, NOR claiming that their prayers to the dead result in raising the dead to face to face encounters.

    Ed --
    He spoke with Moses and Elijah, both long since dead and buried, from a physical standpoint, but very much alive in the afterworld.


    2 Kings 2 shows us that Elijah never died.

    Jude 7 authorizes the reference to the resurrection of Moses by quoting the book "The Assumption of Moses".

    Ed --
    Now if Jesus did such, then how do you propose to ban our asking the saints and our Blessed Mother to pray to God on our behalf?


    Direct face to face contact with resurrected saints or with translated saints (as in the case of Elijah) is not what I am complaining about.

    I am talking about "PRAYERS" to those that are NOT standing in front of you - visibly talking to you - Prayers to the deceased - the "DEAD in Christ" that sleep according to 1Thess 4.

    Ed --

    The actual word "purgatory" is not found in Scripture


    Ok - so you agree that the "Word" is not there - how about the SPECIFICS - the DETAILS of the doctrine of purgatory? Do you also agree that they TOO are missing?

    Ed --
    , however, since the teaching of "justification by faith alone" is a legal myth, a forensic lie, then you have to explain to us how a soul that dies with sins unforgiven upon it can still get into Heaven without being in some way purged of those sins.


    "Soul purging" of ANY sin is not taught in scripture. Rather in the Bible "Forgiveness" of sins through the atoning death of Christ is taught. "HAVING BEEN justified by faith you HAVE peace with God" Romans 5:1-2.

    There is no "by torturous pains in this life your has been PURGED of many sins in this LIFE - and those remaining sins upon your SOUL will be PURGED from your soul in the next life". No such text in all of scripture - not in the 66 - nor in any others.

    Ed --
    If we are not cleansed here on earth, then God will do it for His children in the next life. This is called "exegesis". You should try it sometime.


    That is "NOT" called "exegesis" - it is "eisegesis" reading INTO the Bible what you WISH had been written there. EXEGESIS would require that you take an actual text of scripture SHOW IT speaking for ITSELF - and making ITS OWN meaning clear, based on what IT says and the context within the chapter.

    Try it.

    Ed --

    Then St. Paul was a disobedient believer and his writings should not be obeyed by you or anyone else, for he instructed Timothy that he was "his father in the faith".


    Paul "never instructed Timothy to call him HOLY FATHER". There is no such text.

    Furthermore "Calling Paul THE HOLY FATHER" would not be correct EVEN by Catholic standards because Catholics do not recognize Paul as ever having been the Pope.

    So are you admitting "the obvious" yet? There is in fact NO reference in ALL of scripture to "HOLY FATHER" as a title given to anyone but God??

    Ed -- Of course not,

    So even though 1Cor 3 SAYS that He is the ONLY foundation - the ONE foundation of the church, and even though 1Cor 10:4 says of that ONE foundation "THAT PETRA IS CHRIST" - you still say "NO"??

    [Ed -- because Jesus Himself looked right at St. Peter and said

    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    What do you not understand about this?


    In Matt 16 - where Christ addressed Peter as "Satan" - Christ contrasts the "Petros of Peter" against the "ONE foundation" of the church - the "PETRA - " that is Christ - already referenced in Matt 7 as the FOUNDATION of STONE upon which the church is to be built.

    Ed --
    Of course we do

    So then - Mary was a sinner - and Christ was saving HER from Sin JUST as He saves US from SIN?

    Now we are getting some place Ed! I am happy that such a basic understanding of the state of mankind - including Mary has dawned once again in the Catholic church!!

    I applaud that progress.

    Pure fable - fiction - fabrication. No scripture at all makes that statement about the birth of Mary NOR does Mary's statement about "God my Savior" make any mention of the myth you outlined above.

    Do you at least admit the simple point that this TOO is not found in scripture?

    The trinity is a doctrine whose details we find in scripture - and we must conclude that the Catholic church retained that teaching when it took over the Christian church leadership in Rome. Indeed we do applaud the retention of that doctrine.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Frank

    Frank
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    1,441
    Likes Received:
    0
    D28Guy:
    [QUOTE Do you believe a person is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
     
  16. DanPC

    DanPC
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    ====All that men have given us is the term "trinity", which is the only part of the doctrine that isnt necesarry, or all that important. Its just a word we use.====

    Well, perhaps a couple of centuries of heresies, including Arianism, should not be discounted so easily. This doctrine that you dismiss so easily was not so easy to understand in the first few centuries. :confused:
    As far as trinity not being a necessary doctrine, most Christians would strongly disagree with that. Trinity, among other things, describes the relationship of the Father to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
     

Share This Page

Loading...