What Does It Mean To Be Dead In Trespasses and Sins?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Aug 2, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. In previous threads, I have heard some say that man apart from Christ is not really Dead. Rather, he is just blind and hardened.

    2. But Paul says that we, apart from Christ, are dead in trespasses and sins, and not just blind and hardened by sin.

    3. Paul says,"And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Eph.2:1, NET).
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Death is separation. Trespasses and sins separates us from God. That is spiritual death.

    What affect would hell have on a unresponsive corpse? Why should anyone fear going to hell? Do cremated corpses suffer?

    Also, if we are "dead to sin" as believers...how could we possible sin...if we are dead to it? It helps to define spiritual death properly.
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. I agree 100%

    2. Are you still defining Death spiritually or have you moved to a physical definition of Death? I do not follow.

    3. Paul says that the believer has "died to sin." What does he mean "dead to sin?" But that the believer when he was baptized by the Spirit in conversion has died to the old self, which is symbolized in water baptism.

    4. This does not mean that the believer does not sin. Only that he does not continue to be controlled and be overpowered by sin, as before. He has no desire to continue in sin even though he sins.

    5. Likewise the man who is spiritually dead has no desire for the things of God. His sins separates him from God and he does not desire God.
     
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    A poor understanding is shown here. Your 1st line was ok...but then you mix spiritual with natural man.

    Spiritual dead means man sees no need to come to Christ. With no need, the choice of God is removed. Its just like all other choices we have. You will go pick ice cream and have 31 flavors but only choose what you desire at that moment. Your desire to have what you want makes you blind to the other choices. The same is true when it comes to God and mans sin life. Sin is so much part of natural man that he cannot see God as a logical choice. Therefore he will never respond to Gods calling unless Holy Spirit steps in and opens mans eyes to the truth of mans needs.

    When a man is spiritual dead he can hear with his eyes the gospel message, but cannot hear with his understanding to know his need for God. He is DEAD to the things of God.

    When a man is spiritual dead he can know about God, but he will always see sin as the better choice for him. He is DEAD to the things of God.

    When a man is spiritual dead does not mean that this is a bad person in the eyes of society. Many times the "goodness" or maybe I should call it, "self righteousness" is the sin factor that blinds man. In this case the "good" man will say, "i'm really not that bad of a guy, why do I need God?"

    I need to cut this short......and go to work.
     
  5. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Paul makes that statement again in Colossians 2:13. Lost people are spiritually dead in sin (Gen 2:17, Rom 5:12-14, Eph 2:1-3). They can do nothing to please God since even their "good" deeds are offensive to Him (Is 64:6, Matt 7:21-23, Rom 8:8). The lost man is dead in sin but he is also blind to the truth (Matt 13:10-16) and hard of heart. In other words the situation for the lost man just keeps getting worse and worse. That dead, blind, hard hearted, enemy of God cannot come to God. In fact that person will not come to God. God must bring about salvation in that person's heart, God must draw them to Himself, otherwise that person will remain lost (Jn 6:44, 1Cor 1:26-31, Eph 2:4-5, Col 2:13-14, Rom 3:11-12).

    Salvation is not difficult for man, it is impossible.
     
  6. christianyouth

    christianyouth
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    1
    Don't forget being taken captive by the Devil to do his will. (2 Tim. 2:26)

    :)
     
  7. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I hope it is quite obvious that sinners are not physically dead -- like Lazarus as some Calvinists would have it.

    Let's see if we can explain this: First off, where do you bear your sin guilt? Think about it now. It's in your conscience, is it not? "guilty conscience" rather than "pure."

    OK, so what died? Ezek 18:20 -- "The SOUL [conscience] that sinneth, it shall surely die." Now I should point out that the soul is our moral center and the person that we are -- just as God, relative to the Holy Spirit and Jesus, is the fulness of Who He is.

    Do we then see that the spirit -- our mind, emotions, and will -- can still see God much as Adam did though he had eaten the fruit? It was Adam's conscience made him hide and kept him from being honest with God, right? That's where the change was -- in Adam's soul/conscience. His mind, emotions and will basically doing what his own conscience told him to do (vs before, it was God that directed Adam's conscience into pure living).

    Let me reiterate -- dead does not mean a) brain dead (spirit death) nor b) physical death (the body isn't dead either). It means soul-dead to God and conscience directed by self. No "Life" in the soul.

    Does that clear matters up?

    skypair
     
  8. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    JArthur,

    If this were true, mightn't some choose God accidentally? Like with your ice cream illustration?

    skypair
     
  9. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dead

    Yes Adam died in the garden, yet I am glad he did not lose his ABILITY to choose.
    Where did Adam know God? Where did Adam see the acts of God? Where did Adam know the fellowship of God? Where did Adam know the love of God?

    It was Adam's choice to stay in the garden, God had to DRIVE him out.

    Bartimaeus
     
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems quite simple to me.
    Another complimentary verse to the quoted one is:
    The natural man, spiritually dead in sin can't know God. Will NOT choose Him because they are spiritually discerned.
    If you have a problem with that, your problem is with the Bible, not calvinism.
     
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    When Jesus says "depart for I never knew you" they were dead to him.
    How could you be made alive in Christ Jesus, if you were not dead.

    Paul said "thou fool, how can that be quickened, except it first die.

    Scripture says the soul that sinneth shall die, which included all of us that come to know God and glorified him not as God.

    Paul "I once was alive without the Law, sin revived and I died.

    Jesus said " Let the dead bury the dead". Some were alive, but dead in sin and were to bury those who were fleshly dead.

    Doesn't give man an excuse though, "for they shall all know me, from the least unto the greatest".

    Jesus said, "before I came you had a clok for your sins, but now that I have come you have no clok".

    It the soul come to "know" God and glorify Him not as God, then he has no excuse for his soul dies, but he knows there is a God.

    Dead, is as the prodical son who was lost, he still knew where Father's house was.

    Dead = Lost in accordance with OP.
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2007
  12. Accountable

    Accountable
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have a problem. You compare the soul to our thought life. I agree that the soul is the inward man. Then you say that brain dead is relevent to the spirit. Which is our thought life, or concious? The soul or spirit?


    Also,You say that the soul is dead. Without the soul, the body cannot function. How is this possible?
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the poor understanding is the fact spiritual death means man sees no need to come to Christ. That may be the result of...but is not what spiritual death is.

    Using your view of spiritual death lends itself to problems with believers being "dead to sin". Fact is, spiritual death is spiritual separation from God, plain and simple. Adding to that definition is adding to what spiritual death truly is.
     
    #13 webdog, Aug 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2007
  14. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Too simplistic, Dc. This verse is talking (if you had noticed the CONTEXT) about the fact that the natural man cannot know the HIDDEN WISDOM of God -- the wisdom He has hidden from the world. But He has not hidden it from the "perfect," 1Cor 2:6! And He has NOT hidden the gospel from ALL men, either!

    But would you like me to apply a 'test' to see if YOU know the hidden wisdom of God? parables and mysteries? Do you think YOU would pass??

    skypair
     
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well the following is the Bible, and seems to me Dale that even the ones who did not accept God "knew Him".

    Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2007
  16. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps you did not follow, Accountable. That may not be your fault. :praying:

    The soul is not the "thought life." That would be in your mind/spirit. In fact, you pose an interesting thought to me --- the spirit (mind, emotions, and will) likely are the repository for the 'wood, hay, and stubble' that must be tested with fire before we enter into NJ, which is the presence of God. do you see that? We have thoughts and emotions and desires that have no busimess in the presence of God! Worldly! We appear in heaven, as it were, to a "come as you are" party.

    Soul is conscience. It gets the "prrick" when we sin. I would compare it to the "book of life" vs. the spirit being the "book of works." As such, the "death" is to any care of what God commands. We've already sinned, right? What's the use of God now? We lose, like Adam, our communion with God. This "choice" is registered in the "book of life," is it not? Our name gets "blotted out" to quote David.

    When we get saved, we acknowledge God's primacy in our lives. Our SOUL is changed -- revived! Our spirit is still, throughout life, trying to deal with it! :laugh: That is called "sanctification."

    skypair
     
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again a misunderstanding of the truth.

    The passages which speak of us being "dead to sin" and "alive to God through Christ" are all obviously speaking of the already/not yet nature of the kingdom. Numerous passages around these concepts command us to "reckon ourselves dead to sin" or "count yourselves dead to sin" (Romans 6:6-11)

    The setting....
    And now the blow to your view....
    There are no corresponding passages which say to unbelievers, "reckon yourselves "DEAD IN SIN". Fallen man are not described as being "counted" dead in sin ... Instead they ARE dead in sin ... in the fullest sense of its manifestation. Do you see how ridiculous it would be to consider fallen man "reckoned dead"? and not actually spiritually dead? This really just means that he can contribute no redemptive good toward his salvation. He cannot save himself. Rather that is what Christ does for us on the cross that gives us this spiritual ability.

    Judicially every believer has died to sin. In Galatians 2:20 .......

    "

    Paul is not referring to a constant experience in these passages. He is referring to our position into which we have been brought through our union with Christ in His death. The "flesh with its affections and lusts" has positionally been crucified with Christ. It is a judicial fact in the past and as we appropriate it to ourselves as we abide in Christ and not a moment by moment spiritual experience.

    To believers Paul says, but "if by the Spirit you are putting to death (present continuous action) the deeds of the body, you will live."

    This means believers still experience sin and must mortify it.

    But remember... "without faith it is impossible to please God", so the unregenerate man sins in all he does since it is not done for God's glory. He is unable to do any redemptive good for himself. Only Christ can do that. But thanks be to God, what we are unable to do for ourselves Christ does FOR US. Your scheme unbiblically separates the work of Christ completed on the cross and your faith. You argue that you can believe without the power of the cross to enable you.

    Among other texts, to drive home the real condition of man prior to the new birth, Jesus Himself uses a resurrection analogy. Not only does he raise us from spiritual death but He emphasizes that this is His sovereign choice since only he gives life to "who he wishes", not just any man who convert themselves (an impossible supposition) ... the verse makes such a thought impossible:

    "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." John 5:21
     
    #17 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2007
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello sky...

    I ask a good question. Lets see what the Bible says...

    They cannot hear..meaning understand their need...in order to have that choice....BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT OF GOD.

    its pretty clear to me.
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0

    Lets do it this way. Lets look at both words apart and see their meaning.

    the we will look at the context in which they are used.

    spiritual death

    What does the spiritual mean?
     
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Col. 2:12, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead (Col 2:12, ESV, emphasis mine)

    2. No Baptists doubts that water baptism is a picture of what God has wrought within. Paul says, we were raised through faith. A person can only be raised from the dead.

    3. Precisely because we were dead in sins, God wrought a work in us.
     

Share This Page

Loading...