What does it take for the Holy Spirit to live inside a person?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. Samuels

    Samuels
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    John 14:15-23, NLT
    15 “If you love me, obey my commandments.
    16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you.
    17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
    18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you (as the Holy Spirit).
    19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live.
    20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
    21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
    22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”
    23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.
    24 Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.”


    The above passage teaches us all of the following truths …

    • 2 wonderful blessings are available to you (v.16)
    the Holy Spirit to be given to you
    the Holy Spirit to never leave you
    • 2 conditions for the Father to give you the blessings (v.15)
    loving Jesus
    obeying Jesus’ commandments
    The KEY to the whole passage is the very first verse (v.15).
    • 3 conditions for Jesus loving you and revealing Himself to you (v.21)
    accepting Jesus’ commandments
    obeying Jesus’ commandments
    loving Jesus
    • 2 conditions for the Father to love you (v.21, v.23)
    loving Jesus
    doing what Jesus says
    • 1 condition for doing what Jesus says (v.23)
    loving Jesus
    • 2 conditions for the Trinity to live inside of you (v.23)
    loving Jesus
    doing what Jesus says
    I've been saying for years:
    "If you have One, you have all Three."

    John 15:10, NLT
    10 “When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”

    If you do not obey Jesus’ commandments
    ... you do not remain in Jesus’ love.
    If you do not remain in Jesus’ love
    ... does the Holy Spirit remain in you?
    If you do not obey Jesus’ commandments
    ... does the Holy Spirit remain in you?

    Those who know and love Jesus obey His commandments …
    1 John 2:3-5, NLT
    3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments.
    4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.
    5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him.
     
    #1 Samuels, Jul 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I think you are confusing initial new birth with experiential salvation. The new birth is reversing spiritual separation from God thus bringing you into spiritual union with God - meaning the Spirit of God is in union with your spirit. Since your spirit indwells your physical body, for your spirit to be in spiritual union with God necessitates the indwelling presence of the Spirit in that same body - thus indwelling.

    However, the new birth is a creative act of God that is accomplished in a moment of time as a completed action. It is one thing to be indwelt by the Spirit of God and quite another thing to experientially enjoy the benefits of that indwelling on a daily basis. Jesus is talking to those who already are believers and in whom the Spirit "dwells" as individuals (but not yet indwells them corporately as the ekklesia of Christ or as the institutional "temple" of the Holy Spirit). Their names are already written in heaven (Lk. 10:20) and they already possess eternal life as believers in Christ (Jn. 3:16; 36; 5:24). Thus they are already in spiritual union with God - saved.

    Now, Christ is telling them as believers they "can DO nothing" without him in their daily service for God as believers (Jn. 15:5). If they want to EXPERIENCE God's presence and power in their daily life their are conditions and obedience is the cheif condition. We serve because we are saved not in order to become saved. We serve because we love God not in order to be saved. Christ is not speaking about becoming saved or about obtaining eternal life but about living the abundant life and what it requires.

    If you confuse these two or reverse these two then you will have embraced "another gospel" of justification by works rather than justification by faith without works, but a salvation that does work.

    Experiential salvation has to do with your daily "walk" and in order to experience the joy of your salvation daily, you must "walk" with him, that is, in the way of His revealed will. This is how you "redeem the time" (Eph. 5:16) or make your daily life count for the glory of God. Failure to do so experiences certain experiential losses. You will lose the experience of joy, security, peace of mind, usefulness and rewards, and you will lose that time in which disobedience occupied your life, and thus lose that portion of your life forever in your pursuit to glorify God by your daily life. However, you will not lose your soul (self) - 1 Cor. 3:14-15.

    So the real question is not what it takes for the Holy Spirit to live inside you as that is accomplished once and for all by new birth with the UNCONDITIONAL promise (grace = undeserved favor, thus unconditioned favor) that he will never leave your or forsake you. The real question is what are the conditions for a child of God to CONTINUE TO EXPERIENCE the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit inside of you.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Jul 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
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  3. Samuels

    Samuels
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    Biblicist:
    "Their names are already written in heaven (Lk. 10:20)
    and they already possess eternal life as believers
    in Christ (Jn. 3:16; 36; 5:24)."


    The first thing that jumped out at me was the fact that
    people's names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

    John 14:15 “If you love me, obey my commandments."

    IMO, the whole passage rests on this first verse (v.15)!

    Do the promises, etc. depend on this first verse?


    Since verse 16 begins with "And ..."
    this seems to indicate that the answer is YES.
     
    #3 Samuels, Jul 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  4. revmwc

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    But then you have this passage:
    John 10:
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.

    Not one person who has believed on Christ will ever lose their salvation. It is impossible. For no one is stronger than God, and Jesus not any man can pluck the sheep out Jesus' hand and not any man can pluck them out of the Father's hand. Salvation is as safe and secure as Jesus' and the Father's hand. Satan is not strong enough nor any demon angel is strong enough.

    Then you have 1 Corinthians 3:
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

    Notice verse 15 those believers who do nothing of intrinsic value on this earth will receive only wood, hay and straw. Those all will be consumed by the fire and yet that person will be saved yet so as through the fire of their rewards being tested. Yet again showing belivers cannot lose their salvation.
    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    Paul speaking to the Corinthian believers stated that they were babes and carnal, as such they were saved and since they were saved then their bodies were the temple of the Holy Spirit, who had entered them, when the moment they were regenerated and became Spiritually alive.

    1 Corinthians 3:17
    Tells us what God will do to the believer who continues to walk in a Carnal state that is who defiles the temple:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    Then there's 1 Corinthians 5:
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    The believers who practices sin and doesn't turn from serving it will be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh and yet Paul says the spirit of that person will be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Then 1 Timothy 1:
    19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    those who become shipwrecked concerning the faith that is those who turn from serving God and turn to Blasphemous teaching will be turned over to satan as 1 Corinthians 5 says so that the flesh is destroyed but the spirit is saved.

    All show we cannot lose our salvation the Holy Spirit enters us at salvation and indwells us and will not leave us nor forsake for we are held in God's Hand forever more.

    Now what of the filling? What did Paul state about that?
    Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    don't let sin control you that is what being drunk with wine does the alcohol, Sin controls you but put that away and allow the Holy 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit Spirit to control your life that is let the Spirit Fill you as you walk, this shows believers make choices to serve Christ or to Serve Sin. To Serve Christ means you are filled that is under the influence and control of the Holy Spirit. To serve the flesh that being drunk or under the influence of sin is to allow it to control you, Paul told the believers at Ephesus to all the Spirit to control, to choose to allow the Spirit to control their lives.
     
  5. Samuels

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    I will begin where you began.
    People often use this passage incorrectly
    because they do not really understand
    what the words are referring to.
    In short ...

    hear -- Do you hear Jesus' voice?
    know -- Do you have a personal relationship
    with Jesus where you "know" each other?
    follow -- Do you follow (keep, obey)
    Jesus' commandments?

    These words are not referring to ...
    hear -- I responded to God's call.
    know -- Jesus knows me, i.e. knows who I am.
    follow -- I'm a follower of Jesus,
    i.e. I believe in Jesus and His gospel.
     
    #5 Samuels, Aug 2, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  6. revmwc

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    But He not we hold us in His hands, once we have heard the gospel and respond to the Conviction brought by the Holy Spirit then we call upon Christ as a sinner in repentance from our sinfullness. We know Him as our Lord and savior we are then to follow the Leadership that is be filled with the Holy Spirit as we follow His guidance through the Scripture. But we are held by Jesus and God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit, and can never fall nor can we be snatched out of their hand by anyone.
     
  7. Samuels

    Samuels
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    But we not He are free-will beings, i.e. not robots!
    Yes, we are then to follow His guidance through
    the Scripture and with the help of the Holy Spirit.
    Yes, no one can snatch us out of His hand ...
    but we can choose to leave His hand,
    i.e. we cannot snatch ourselves out of His hand.
    Etc.
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    What does it take for the Holy Spirit to live inside a person?

    Not sure what the OP gave as an answer, but it sounded a lot like keeping God's commands. Which of course is utterly false.

    By the numbers

    1) In order to be sealed in Christ, God must have already put you into Christ. Thus you have already undergone the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration, and arisen in Christ a new creation.

    2) In order to put in Christ, God must choose you through faith in the truth.

    3) No one was indwelt until after Christ's ascension, when He sent the Comforter.

    Thus every born anew believer has been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our future adoption as sons at Christ's second coming.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.
     
  9. revmwc

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    We cannot save ourselves and cannot keep ourselves saved. Not one person can snatch themselves out of God's hand. They cannot choose to be removed, once they choose to believe on Christ they are no longer condemned John 3:18 makes that clear.
     
  10. utilyan

    utilyan
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    You ask for it.

    Luke 11
    13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”


    Scripture says you can do, Satan says you can't.


    1 Corinthians 6

    19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
     
  11. Samuels

    Samuels
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    Sorry, no idea what you're getting at.
    Please do not pretend to be like the Lord ...
    who at times keeps His true meaning hidden,
    e.g. with His parables.
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    ONLY 1 thing required by God, and that is to believe upon the Lord Jesus!
     
  13. Samuels

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    This is the kindergarden view ...
    with no regard for 100+ warning verses in the NT.

    I suggest that you try reconciling:
    the many OSAS verses with the many anti-OSAS verses
    ... and see what you come up with.

    This seems only fair, reasonable, logical, etc.
    ... not to mention wise!
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Who's trying to be like Jesus!?!?!:Devilish


    It might make more sense in the context of the OP. I added it below.

    I think your opinion about pretending to be like Jesus is funny.

    John 13
    14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

    Matthew 11
    29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    1 Corinthians 11
    1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.





    What does it take for the Holy Spirit to live inside a person?
    You ask for it.

    Luke 11
    13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”


    Scripture says you can do, Satan says you can't.


    1 Corinthians 6

    19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Sam,

    I don't believe in ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

    But the paradox is .

    I don't believe in ONCE DOOMED ALWAYS DOOMED either.



    For example.

    Paul did not meet any of your requirements. Paul was murdering Christians in genocide, blasphemy against God, hunting down Christians unrepentantly.

    There is no justifiable grounds neither in faith nor works that would merit for God's saving intervention on Paul's behalf.


    Paul expresses this later. The PERFECT PATIENCE of GOD is a real thing.

    1 timothy 1

    12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    That is what Jesus and paul stated to us, so were they both wrong on this topic?
    And there is NO verse in the NT that when taken in context supports a true believer somehow losing their salvation!
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan
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    There is over 150 verses against OSAS, the bible is PACKED.

    And you want to convince us the correct theology is the one the Devil introduced and started this mess to begin with?

    You can't lose your salvation is the first thing SATAN taught. That's his BEST WORK.


    Genesis 3
    4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


    Hey your already saved.....your going to be like Jesus.....

    Your not going die, your not going fall...



    Whats the difference between OSAS and what the Devil is preaching? Oh nothing is gonna happen:Devilish

    You can sin its ok.:Devilish
     
  18. Samuels

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    And the next major one was ...
    the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
    Prepare now ...
    = to face the antichrist's tribulation period
    = to endure in your faith unto death
    = to refuse to take the mark of the beast
    = to be a martyr for Jesus

    Those few surviving believers will be
    raptured out at the last (7th) trumpet.

    Think I'm kidding, saints? Nope.
     
    #18 Samuels, Aug 11, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  19. revmwc

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  20. Samuels

    Samuels
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    No one is denying that there are OSAS verses in the NT.

    But, many deny that it is important to consider
    the anti-OSAS verses in the NT.

    Now, folks, how about considering both groups?
    How about coming up with a reconciliation plan?
    I.E. How about reconciling the two?

    I agree with T.L.Osborne's research, which resulted in:
    True saving faith = belief-faith-trust-obedience.

    Of course, the obedience part is the tricky one;
    just exactly what must we obey?

    The sons/daughters of God are led by the Holy Spirit
    (Romans 8:14).
    What He says might vary from one believer to another.
     

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