What does Romans 9:18 mean?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by rpniman, Jan 5, 2008.

  1. rpniman

    rpniman
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    Romans 9:18 "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."?

    This leads me to believe that sometimes God supersedes a person’s free will as he did with Pharaoh and exercises his divine sovereignty to prevent them from softening and accepting his mercy.

    How should I interpret this scripture?
     
  2. canadyjd

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    You're on the right track. God is sovereign over His creation.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #2 canadyjd, Jan 5, 2008
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  3. pinoybaptist

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    This has something to do with Irresistible Grace.
    The only thing God had to do in Pharaoh's case to "harden" Pharaoh was not to do anything.
    If God wanted Pharaoh repentant in order for Him to apply His grace to him, then Pharaoh would come to God, and God will be merciful to him.
     
  4. webdog

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    Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with God's sovereign election of Israel. Any and all verses within those chapters need to be kept within that context.
     
  5. Jarthur001

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    I had no idea Pharaoh was from Israel
     
  6. webdog

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    *edited...not even worthy of a response...
     
    #6 webdog, Jan 5, 2008
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  7. Aaron

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    So God was not sovereign over Egypt?
     
  8. webdog

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    what is with the Egypt / Pharaoh strawmen?
     
  9. menageriekeeper

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    RP, what Webdog says about these chapters being about Isreal may indeed be true. I just never have considered that so I don't know. I don't want you to discount that as you study, but I personally look at this quite simply:

    Who has God chosen to have mercy on? "For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence". Has he had mercy on those who came/will come to repentence? I believe so.

    Who has God chosen to harden according to His own purpose? Well a clear example is Pharaoh. Would Pharaoh ever have heeded God's commandments? Not very likely. God told Moses what Pharaoh's response would be as indeed He foreknew what it would be. So was it God's fault that He allowed Pharaoh to do what Pharaoh wanted to do?
     
  10. Jarthur001

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    No its more like clay pots not strawmen

    humm ...but lets keep with this idea...

    Going by the OP passage of Romans 9
    Is Pharaoh the elect or not?
     
  11. TCGreek

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    1. Rom 9:18 means exactly what it says: God has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

    2. This verses in the conclusion to the objection raised in v.14 and the illustration given in vv. 15-17.
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    What do you mean?

    Not very likely ? why take away from Gods power?



    Going by this verse and not others ideas, was God behind this? Someone was raised for a purpose.

    Who was it? Pharaoh

    What was the purpose.....
    To show Gods power.....

    And what is His power....

     
  13. webdog

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    ...let's not...because Pharaoh nor egypt is mentioned in Romans 9:18 (the OP).
     
    #13 webdog, Jan 5, 2008
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  14. menageriekeeper

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    LOL! And here I thought I was acknowledging God's power by leaving open the possibility of God drawing even Pharoah to Him!

    Ah, but this scripture doesn't say that God created Pharoah for the purpose of destroying him. It says God raised him up. What this means to you is evidently different than the meaning I get from this verse. To me this means God allowed Pharaoh to come to power. Much the same way "raise up" is used in this passage:

    Jer 6:22Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.Jer 6:23They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

    Now did God create this nation or did He use what was already available?
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    The great thing about this, is there is no need to guess.

     
  16. Jarthur001

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    hello...

    any body home? :)


    What do you do with Therefore? Therefore links the verse to the verse before and is the conclusion of the thought.

    Hello?
     
  17. menageriekeeper

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    Aww, come on Jarther. You can say it plainly: "I believe that God specially created Pharaoh for His purposes even though the scripture doesn't plainly state this and instead says raise up".

    I'll stick with: "God knew there was a man in line for the Egyptian throne that was hard headed, stubborn and would refuse God's call and so raised this man to power in order that His own power and majesty might be shown."

    It's a fundamental difference between you Calvies and us Freewillers.
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Good ...... :)

    The nation came from a person elected by God....not even born.....he was chosen
     
  19. webdog

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    We've done the whole Romans 9-11 thing before, and I have no desire to do it again. I was answering the OP.

    Adame Clark summarizes verse 18 well to which I agree...

    Verse 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will] This is the apostle's conclusion from the facts already laid down: that God, according to his own will and wisdom, in perfectrighteousness, bestows mercy; that is to say, his blessings upon one part of mankind, (the Jews of old, and the Gentiles of the present time,) while he suffers another part (the Egyptians of old, and the Jews of the present day) to go on in the abuse of his goodness and forbearance, hardening themselves in sin, till he brings upon them a most just and exemplary punishment, unless this be prevented by their deep repentance and general return to God through Jesus the promised, the real Messiah.
     
  20. Jarthur001

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    I'm sorry...but I can't do that. I'll have to go with the Bible on this one. :)

    Exd 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
     

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