What every anti-calvinist needs to know

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pastor Larry, May 8, 2003.

  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I found this list from another site and thought it was worth repeating here.

    This is from: CALVINISTIC INDEX PAGE

    This site also has a page on "Criticising Calvinism" that is worth reading.

    Let's renew a concerted effort to understand where the other side is coming from rather than continually making a bunch of false representations. As this site says, if you are writing against Calvinism make sure that the Calvinist can recognize himself in what you write.

    This gentleman says:
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Then Calvinists do not have the mind of Christ who tells men to repent and believe, knowing they have the ability. Who is in contrast to God?
    if the duty, then how is that duty carried out without the ability (see 5 above)
     
  3. KenH

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    Hey Yelsew, do you believe we Calvinists are saved?
     
  4. Yelsew

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    A complete denial of Jesus atonement of the sins of the world!
     
  5. Yelsew

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    A complete missapplication of the Atonement. The atonement pays the price for mans sin, thus removing sin from the final judgment. That judgment whether one is saved from the lake of fire or cast into the lake of fire is based solely upon ones belief or lack thereof in the Son of God, the Christ.
     
  6. Yelsew

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    If you have faith in Jesus, even on his name, you are saved! Now you make the decision are you saved?
     
  7. William C

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    Then Calvinists do not have the mind of Christ who tells men to repent and believe, knowing they have the ability. Who is in contrast to God?
    if the duty, then how is that duty carried out without the ability (see 5 above)
    </font>[/QUOTE]You nailed the major objection to Calvinism. They now will turn to Romans 9 and begin to use Paul's diatribe objection to hardening as a defense of our objection to Total depravity as if they are one in the same. This is the root of their error.
     
  8. William C

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    Why then do Calvinist quote Romans 9:16 in reference to salvation saying, "It doesn't depend upon man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy," as if man might desire to be saved but could not unless God had mercy.

    The truth is this verse is about man's desire and effort to be saved through works of the law instead of upon God's grace which is applied through faith.

    The truth is everyone wants to be saved! Who wants to go to hell? Many people seek to be saved, the problem is where they are seeking. Many, especially in those days, sought to be saved through the law. Others seek salvation through other gods. But its not dependant upon that desire, its dependant upon the grace of God, who calls all to salvation through faith in his son.
     
  9. KenH

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    Nope. The best explanation of the doctrine of man's inability are the words spoken by Jesus in John 6:43 and John 6:65.

    I guess you keep wanting to jump to Romans 9 since you don't want to say that Jesus was in error since what He taught in John chapter 6 is not what you teach.
     
  10. KenH

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    So you don't think there is any such thing as a true atheist? Interesting.
     
  11. Yelsew

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    How does a Calvinist know that he is resisting the Holy Spirit? Has he been presented the Word that the Holy Spirit has brought through some preacher or the written word and upon recognizing it for what it is, not "hearing" it? Is he receiving but rejecting? If yes, then he is not regenerated, and the Holy Spiri has failed to prepare the ground to receive the seed. There goes your regeneration first theory!

    Let's see, the Methodists call this Prevenient Grace. The Bible calls it God's Grace for truly that attribute of God prevents Him from carrying out his justice upon sinful man.

    God's Grace is the same for all mankind, for all mankind are spared the penalty of death for the number of 120 years, by God, for that is the time God alloted for man to live. 120 years of Grace for each man so that each man can hear the word of God, and believe on His only Begotten Son and thereby have eternal life. Then it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.

    That seems fair to me, but to call God's grace irresistable is a poor understanding of God and His eternal attributes. Many men have successfully resisted God for their whole natural life only to find, after they left this natural life, that they were wrong!

    If God's grace were truly irristable, every individual that ever lived, is living or will live is saved, because God's Grace covers them all! You see, it is not Grace that saves! It is Grace that gives each individual the opportunity to be saved. The Beloved Peter says this,
     
  12. KenH

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    What version are you quoting from, Yelsew?
     
  13. Frogman

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    The YCSOMNV of course.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. KenH

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    [​IMG]

    The reason I ask is I only have the NIV with me and it says nothing about "opportunity". It says "our Lord's patience means salvation".

    So I was just wondering what version Yelsew was quoting from.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Yelsew,

    Thanks for demosntrating yet again that you are not listening, and that you do not understand. Your objections are met with our understanding of Scripture. I wish you would just listen sometimes. Just put a sock in your cyber mouth and listen to what others are saying. You too Bill. Both of you raise up an objection that has been explained so many times it is nauseating but you plow right on like Scripture doesn't say what it says.

    It is really disappointing. :( :( :(
     
  16. Yelsew

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    Regeneration precedes faith in Christ. That means that only those whom God elects to regenerate can have faith. Yet it is God stated desire that none should perish, which means that God leaves election up to the individual. God is not carrying an overflowing basket of only those he elects and juggling to catch those that fall out of the basket. That is pure silliness.

    God created all that is. That means that God is fully aware of the whole of his creation. He made man as the last of his creation work, and did a supreme job of it. He called it good! Man was so good, being in God's own image, that man had the abilities and the capacities for abilities that God Himself has. What God did not instill in man is the knowledge of good and evil, and eternal life, hence the trees in the center of the garden in which God placed man. So pure was man that God gave him only one command with a warning. Do not eat of the tree in the center of the Garden lest ye surely die. Then God who created the beguiling serpent allowed the serpent into the garden too! So we have pure man and woman in the Garden with the beguiling serpent who speaks the language. Sooner or later they come together and that beautiful serpent sweet talks the helpmeet for man and beguiles her into doubting the truth of God's command regarding the tree in the center of the garden. She picks and eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and behold she continues to live! Viola! So she hands the fruit to the Man who seeing that she ate and lives, decides to eat too! And behold he continues to live! Viola! But then, they heard the voice of God and were sorely afraid and hid themselves for they saw that they were naked! Well God curses the serpent, Curses the woman, Curses the man, expells them from the garden and posts a sentry of flaming swords at the entrance to the garden so man cannot reenter.

    Wait a minute! There's supposed to be something here about how God altered his creation so that his created man no longer has the image and abilities God created him to have. Where is that found? Oh God, it's not there! Along comes John Calvin who says oh yes it is. Man is so totally depraved because of sin that he no longer has that image of God, and no longer can even hear the word of God and repent or confess, or even know God, unless God himself comes to him and remakes him.

    I'm sorry guys, but my bible does not have John Calvin's story in it! My bible says that NOTHING changed in man to make man different than God created him to be. Man is still in the image of God. Still has the attributes God put in him in the creation, still has a free will with which to behave in accordance with. Still has a brain, Still has a mind, Still has a spirit, and still has ears with which to hear. The difference is that man's ears get clogged up with sin so that man does not listen to God even though he has the ability.

    God sees man as the ground, some of it hard and un-arable, some rocky and shallow, some overrun by weeds and tares, and some arable to varying degrees. So he keeps scattering the seed of his Holy Word, letting it fall on all the types of ground. You see, God knows, because he created it, that even hard ground can be made arable by his tending to it, enriching it, plowing it, shaping it, watering it. He knows that eventually that ground will take the seed and produce a crop. He is after all God!

    As for justification? Jesus' selfless sacrifice on the cross, and the shedding of his blood, JUSTIFIES US! We have nothing to do with our justification. His atonement for our sins and indeed the sins of the whole world is sufficient to justify us all before the thone of God.

    As for Salvation? God did all the work for our salvation, and Jesus finished it in the atonement for sin. Therefore we can do absolutely nothing to save ourselves, the work is already done for us. But like any gift given it must be received and accepted. Thank you Father for your gift of life eternal which I willingly and freely accept through my faith in your beloved Son Jesus.

    As for Sanctification? Because, I willingly and freely accept the gift of eternaly life through faith in Jesus, the Christ, I am now Sanctified before the Throne of God. I will not face the second death of being cast into the lake of fire. My belief in Jesus Sanctifies me.

    I was nothing, I did nothing, I earned nothing, but I do believe in Jesus, the Son of God, The Christ. Therefore I am a Child of God, An adopted brother of Jesus Christ, an eternal being, destined to live with Jesus forever. All the Glory is God's and God's alone!
     
  17. Yelsew

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    What version are you quoting from, Yelsew? </font>[/QUOTE]The New Jerusalem Bible, readers edition.

    This version makes the most sense in light of God's attributes of Grace and Mercy. He delays his coming so that more can believe and Peter being the Patriarch of the Jerusalem church seems well versed in the matter of faith and how it is derived.
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Edited for obvious reasons. :( :( Don't push your luck Yelsew.

    [ May 08, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  19. Yelsew

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    If there are questions about the moderating, you may address them to the moderators via PM. Public discussions of the moderating are prohibited.

    [ May 08, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  20. KenH

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    2 Peter 3:15(KJV)
    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

    2 Peter 3:15(NASB)
    and regard the patience R163 of our Lord as salvation;

    2 Peter 3:15(NCV)
    Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient.

    2 Peter 3:15(NKJV)
    and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation

    2 Peter 3:15(NRSV)
    and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation.

    I don't know anything about The New Jerusalem Bible as to its reliability or whether it is a translation or a paraphrase, but at least on this verse it appears off the mark. The people that put the NJB must have added the word "opportunity" to reflect a theological bias. That is unfortunate.

    It is apparently a Roman Catholic Bible and I found out the following about it from www.kenanderson.net/bible/new_jerusalem.html:

    "The New Jerusalem Bible is less dynamic than its predecessor, but it still tends to consider an allegiance to the modern expression of English as more important than an accurate translation of the ancient text. While less so than the JB, the NJB still shows a tendency to interpret rather than to translate. When a more literal translation of the text fails to read smoothly in English, the NJB opts to rearrange the text and to clarify it, in some cases changing and narrowing the meaning."

    I would kindly suggest, Yelsew, that you use a reliable translation instead of a paraphrase to read the Holy Bible. [​IMG]
     

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