what exactly can free will do?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Brutus, Mar 12, 2003.

  1. Brutus

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    Please produce a passage that declares in PLAIN WORDS what "free will" is and exactly what it can do!
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Free will: Choose you this day whom you will serve.

    What it does: Determines your course of life henceforth!
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Free will: "I have set before you Life and Death, Choose life"

    What it does: Changes your direction!
     
  4. romanbear

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    Hi Brutus;
    Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Does this verse give you the idea that we are to choose or are we made to do what we do.
    How about this one.

    Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    How about this one;
    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    These all imply choice we have to be able to choose this is free will.
    Romanbear
     
  5. Brutus

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    Yelsew:The question most often asked by non-Calvinists is;"If you believe God works all things according to the counsel of His will(Eph.1:11)and that His knowledge of all things past,present,and future is infalible,then what is the point of praying that anything happen?" Usually this question is asked in relation to human decision:"If God has predestined some to be His sons and chosen them before the foundation of the world(Eph.1:4-5),then what's the point in praying for anyone's conversion?" The argument here is that if prayer is to be possible at all man must have the power of self-determination. That is, all man's decisions must ultimately belong to himself,not God. For otherwise he is determined by God and all his decisions are really fixed in God's eternal counsel.
     
  6. Brutus

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    Yelsew & Romanbear: Let me ask you the following question. Is the following quote how you would respond concerning the elect of God and prayer? "Why pray for anyone's conversion if God has chosen before the foundation of the world who will be His sons?"
     
  7. Yelsew

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    I do not believe in "the elect" as being all who will be saved. Neither You nor I know who the elect are, we have no way of knowing.

    I do not agree that Prayer for lost souls is ever in vain. I believe that God opened his arms wide and says to all who will hear and act on it, Come unto me all who are weary and heavy burdened and I will give you rest. And, I am the living water, Drink from me all who thirst! He never puts limits on who can come!
     
  8. romanbear

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    Hi Brutus;
    If you want the answer to this question you should read Einstiens theory of relativity. Then you might have a glimpse of what context that God lives in. You see God is not restricted by time like we are. He lives out side of it. He's looking at us at the very moment that he created us.

    This is how Einstien said it;
    "From a Christian point of view, It is reasonable to conclude that the temporal and the spatial extent of our universe were created together, and thus the entire four demensional structure resides before it's creater in an eternal present. Thus our modern scientific understanding of the nature of time fits quite well with the Christian tradition that God has Knowledge of all time, past, present, and future:" "Before Abraham was, I am."

    You see God see's it all at once and is looking at His creation right now. Sure He knows the future, but we don't. He knows who will choose to follow Him. He does not interfear. Thus this is How He knows who will and won't accept Him. We don't. We are commanded to preach the gospel to every creature so that none will have an excuse. Not because we are force to be Christian. God's knowing who will choose does not effect the choosing. If you don't choose, He knows that to. We don't. To assume that we are save because we get fuzzy feelings when we read the Bible does not save us. Even if we continue to study it for the rest of our lives.

    Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Think about it. You can believe and still go to hell. But if you commit your life to him and repent, you will be choosing life.... You will be Choosing Him willingly..... Submitting to him.... You will be His.You have to give your self over willingly to Him.

    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    Looks to me like we have to choose to get up and open the door

    Romanbear
     
  9. The Archangel

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    OK, Get ready for a shock! I agree with this statment.

    However, it is a question of ability to respond. There is a bona fide offer even to those who are not elect. But, only those who are regenerated will be able to hear and respond.

    Now, I know that is not what you mean by your statement. However, most of the wording I have no dispute with.

    Except for this: He never puts limits on who can come!

    He does insure who will come. That is the purpose of Election.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  10. romanbear

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    Brutus;
    Sorry I got so carried away I for got to answer your question.

    Here goes;We pray for the ones who are lost that the Holy spirit might draw them to him and they might willingly respond to that call.He is not willing that any should perish.
    Romanbear
     
  11. romanbear

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    Archangel;
    Quote;_-----------------------
    But, only those who are regenerated will be able to hear and respond.
    ---------------------------------
    This is not true no where in scripture does it say we have to be regenerated before we can hear or respond. You cannot be saved before you believe. Faith always comes before regeneration every where in the Bible faith comes first.
    Romanbear
     
  12. KenH

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    romanbear,

    Conversion is a process. Simply believing is not all there is to conversion. Conversion involves changing the person's entire mindset - it is not simply an intellectual assent that certain facts are true.

    Repentance is part of conversion and occurs before believing. Do you believe an unsaved man can repent? If so, after he repented do you believe he is saved?
     
  13. romanbear

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    Hi Ken; [​IMG]
    Yes I do believe that a sinner can repent and yes I do believe that we have to repent in order to be saved, in just that order. We are not saved first. Regenerated means saved.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  14. KenH

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    Actually, regeneration is a part of the process of conversion. One is regenerated, then one repents, then one believes, then one lives his life for Christ Jesus. This is the Biblical ordo salutis.
     
  15. Brutus

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    I don't know about anyone else here but I am constantly being asked by Arminians "why do Calvinists pray fpr anyone's conversion if God has chosen before the foundation of the world who will be His sons?" Now, what I would like to do is turn the question back to our Arminian brothers. If you insist that man must have the power of ultimate self-determination(free will),what is the point of praying for them? What do you want God to do for him? You cannot ask that God overcome the man's rebellion,for that rebellion is precisely what the man is now choosing,so that would mean God overcame his choice and took away his power of self-determination. But how can God save this man unless He act so as to change the man's heart from hard hostility to tender trust? Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this,you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is,you're conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's,not merely his.
     
  16. KenH

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    Good point, Brutus. It can also be asked of Arminians why they do not pray to the person they wish to be converted since he has the power according to their scheme.
     
  17. Yelsew

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    Silly question Ken, We testify to the one who needs Jesus. The one we testify to says that we "are Praying on" him. So we take it to a higher power. He's been told, heard the word, Now it is up to the Holy Spirit to confirm the truth he has heard and that he will decide of his own will to believe. That is why we pray for the lost.
     
  18. Yelsew

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    I knew it!

    Do you listen to the radio or watch TV or even Go to the movies? Why do you think such media exists? I can assure you they exist not as a benevolence to all mankind, but rather as a medium where people who have things to sell can tell you about them and tweak your interest in their product, so that at some point in time you will purchase their product. You will come to believe that you must have what they are offering. It remains however your choice to purchase. That is "Desire cometh by hearing and hearing by the media". That is called imputing the "need" into the prospective client.

    That is what you Preachers do every Sunday and every time you are called on to deliver the word of God. Your advertising is implanting the word of God into the memory of the hearer. Sooner or later the hearer is convinced that what you are advertising to him is right or wrong for himself. If right, the hearer submits and becomes regenerated. If wrong, the hearer shuts the door and either takes no action (passive rejection) or dismisses your advertising as not for him (rejects).
     
  19. KenH

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    Caught you in your own words, Yelsew! [​IMG] That is my biggest complaint with non-Calvinists. Some of them act like the gospel and Jesus are just another product to try to sell like they are selling soap.
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Calvinists think that the Divine order is regeneration, repentance and then faith in Jesus.

    The correct view is repentance, faith and then God regenerates the soul.

    Try to think. If someone is regenerated they would not need to repent or to have faith. Repentance means to turn from your sin, so that the Lord sees your genuine contrition and then you realize that He has regenerated you because of your trust in Him.

    If God regenerates a sinner first, he or she no longer have a need to turn from the sins of the past because the Lord allegedly would have regenerated him before the latter two events of repentance and faith took place.

    Calvin or his great grandchildren really come up with some 'beauts.'
     

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