What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by poncho, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. poncho

    poncho
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    What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner?

    Paul Craig Roberts

    Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have.

    One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

    Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.

    The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

    Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertake–unless there was a plan to frame Russia.

    One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

    This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.

    As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

    Read More At: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/
     
    #1 poncho, Jul 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2014
  2. Magnetic Poles

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    Let the crazy conspiracy theories begin.
     
  3. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    What happened to MH17 is exactly what appeared to happen to MH17.

    It was shot down by Russian-supported terrorist/separatists using a Russian-supplied missile on what the idiots thought was a Ukrainian military transport jet.

    End of story. Any other conspiracy-theory based nonsense is invented by weak minds refusing to deal with reality.
     
  4. ShagNappy

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    Kind of like when the US Navy idiots shot down an Iranian Airbus A300 that they mistook for an F-14A Tomcat on an attack run, even though the passenger jet was ascending, in 1988, from a Guided Missie Cruiser.
     
  5. Sapper Woody

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    Could have just said US Navy. You were redundant. Just kidding. No offense, to any sailors on here.

    I'm not sure what happened there with that plane. I haven't been keeping up with the news. I do know that it seems odd.

    One thing I do know: after this incident and the mysterious disappearing plane, I won't be flying Malaysian!
     
  6. poncho

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    Guilt By Insinuation

    How American propaganda works.

    Paul Craig Roberts

    Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?

    The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center.

    The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area. The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data captured by the satellite.

    President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires “a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Putin’s call for an independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with anything to hide.

    Turning to Washington Putin stated: “In the meantime, no one [not even the “exceptional nation”] has the right to use this tragedy to achieve their narrowly selfish political goals.”

    Putin reminded Washington: “We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and to sit down at the negotiating table. I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed [by Kiev] on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.”

    What is the American response?

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/

    There's one way for you who are making matter of fact claims to prove that your "claims" are true.

    Show us the proof!

    Until then you're just acting like a bunch of emotionally unstable easily manipulated squawking parrots repeating the words of proven liars and unrepentant warmongers. Once again.

    Show us the proof! If you have it.

    Why is it always the same people that scream "conspiracy theory" the loudest that make matter of fact claims they cannot back up with solid evidence? And why is it always the same people who make the matter of fact claims with no proof the same ones who claim to be the only one's with any credibility? And why are they also the very same ones who DEMAND everyone else prove every word and statement they make?

    What's so special about these guys that they can claim exemptions from the rules they make up and try to enforce on everyone else?

    Seems a bit odd to me.

    I'd use the "H" word but I'd probably be rewarded with another 10 points for pointing out the blatantly obvious nature of these people again.

    MH17 Show & Tell: It's the West's Turn

    July 21, 2014 (Tony Cartalucci - LD) - Russia has now shown its satellite pictures and radar information from the Donetsk, Ukraine region during the July 17, 2014 Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash.

    The Wall Street Journal reported in its article, "Russia Presents Its Account of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash," that:

    Russia's Defense Ministry on Monday presented its first detailed account of the final moments of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, saying Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the vicinity shortly before the crash and that satellite imagery showed Ukraine had moved missile systems into the area before the incident.

    At a news conference, air force chief Igor Makushev didn't say who the ministry thought had fired the missile that apparently brought down the airliner on Thursday.

    < snip >

    Russia has shown a great deal of evidence directly contradicting the West's baseless claims. Now it's time for the Pentagon to show the world their pictures and data along with their explanations.

    Read More At: http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/mh17-show-tell-its-wests-turn.html
     
    #6 poncho, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
  7. church mouse guy

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    According to Billy Cunningham, a Great American, the Russians themselves shot it down because it takes a 15-man crew and the locals are not trained in Russian advanced weaponry.

    http://www.thebillcunninghamshow.com/
     
  8. InTheLight

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    Why do conspiracy theorists always ask leading questions laden with innuendo?


    A video of an SA-11 "Buk" SAM system being flat-bedded out of Eastern Ukraine and into Russia that shows two of its missiles are missing trumps a photo of the same from "locations from which the airliner could have been brought down."


    Well that would be pretty stupid for Ukrainian forces to be flying a fighter jet next to an airliner they intended to shoot down, now wouldn't it? Of course, if the Russian separatists were trying to shoot down the Ukranian jet fighter and....oops, hit the Malaysian airliner instead, now that does make sense! Especially considering that Russians in Eastern Ukraine had previously shot down a Ukraine An-26 military transport plane and followed that up by shooting down a Ukranian Su-25 Frogfoot attack jet days later.

    <Yawn> There is always a US satellite peering in on that area of the Ukraine/Russian border.

    I'll bet they'd want to see our photographic capabilities and resolutions. Sorry, the U.S. is not going to bite.

    Of course not. Former heads of the KGB are the most trustworthy people in the world, with nothing to hide! LOL!

    While he feverishly works on figuring out how to use the tragedy to advance his selfish political goals!

    No doubt if Russia had not invaded Ukraine this would never have happened.
     
    #8 InTheLight, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
  9. poncho

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    US State Department "Confident" MH17 "Mistakenly" Downed By Separatists, Finds No Direct Link To Russia.

    UPDATE: Having failed absymally with their earlier release of "information," US intelligence officials have tried to give more information... sadly this does not include any actual evidence, just statements and confirmation of YouTube clips...

    Via WaPo,

    Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social media sites.

    The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine

    ...

    Senior U.S. intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.

    “That is not a plausible scenario,” said one senior U.S. official, who noted that American intelligence agencies have confirmed that Ukraine had no anti-aircraft missile system within range of the Malaysian flight at the time it was struck.

    ...

    The official was one of three senior U.S. intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity during a briefing arranged for reporters in Washington

    ...

    “We are seeing a full-court press by the Russian government to instruct affiliated or friendly elements to manipulate the media environment to spread Russia’s version of the story,” the official said. “What this looks like again is a classic case of blaming the victims.”

    ...

    The officials also declined to provide more details on the satellites and other sophisticated sensors that enabled them to trace the path of the missile, citing concerns about compromising secret U.S. capabilities.

    ...

    The U.S. officials said they have confirmed the authenticity of some of those recordings, including one in which the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane at the time the Malaysian aircraft was struck.

    Analysis comparing that audio clip to other confirmed recordings of Strelkov’s voice “confirmed these were authentic conversations,” one of the officials said.

    ...

    “If you listen to Youtube you get that: ‘we’re finding civilians,’” a senior U.S. intelligence official said. Partly for that reason, the official said, “the most plausible explanation to me is [it was] a mistake.”
    * * *
    So once again no actual evidence... conjecture on 'unknown' recordings provided by Ukraine (ignoring for a moment the fact that the ones that have been released publicly have been proved false). Illustrations of a large Russian military base near the border of Ukraine... well is anyone surprised by that?

    < snip >

    With a somewhat shocking lack of evidence, AP reports that US officials (on condition of anonymity) have stated that intelligence suggests Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was mistakenly shot down by separatists and can find no link to Russia.

    However, the unnamed non-proof-providing officials believed Russia "created the conditions" for the downing of MH17. For now there is not even a YouTube clip to confirm this... as officials do not make the new technical evidence public...

    < snip >

    So it seems like all we have is... CLICK HERE

    Read More At: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/us-state-department-confident-mh17-mistakenly-downed-separatists-finds-no-direct-lin

    Again . . . Cui bono?
     
    #9 poncho, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
  10. Melanie

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    Criminal thugs murdered everyone aboard the flight ....end of story....


    I did not know anyone on board, but nursing buddies say that the director of the Pathology Unit from their hospital and his wife died, a much loved retired teacher was also amongst these people who were loved by many......


    It is sickening that the area was looted and the corpses left to lie under the sun in that stinking cesspool of a country. I am a bit angry about it all....
     
  11. poncho

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    Let's add up Washington, the western media and certain BB members proof so far . . .

    Anger. Outrage. Insinuation. Opinion. Hatred. Paranoia. Slanderous remarks. Overworked cliches. Debunked recordings. Unsubstantiated claims by un-named "officials". Youtube clips and "matter of fact claims" made by those who continually hold themselves out as being the most credible people on BB.

    In other words . . . none.

    Show us the proof!

    Security services confiscated tapes immediately after incident

    Why has Kiev failed to release recordings from air traffic control tapes which could prove what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? Ukrainian security services confiscated the tapes immediately after the incident.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/kiev-censors-mh17-air-traffic-control-recordings.html

    Key Piece of Video “Evidence” for Russian Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked

    Video of Rebel Buk Launchers Headed Back to Russia? No – Images From Ukraine-Held Territory Since May

    Mish is a highly-respected financial blogger. His Global Economic Analysis site routinely wins awards such as:

    New York Times: NYT 10th Annual Year in Ideas – #1 Idea of the Year ‘Do-It-Yourself Macroeconomics’

    Time Magazine: Best 25 Financial Blogs

    Bloomberg: Financial Blogs: The Best of the Bunch

    CNBC: Best Alternative Financial Websites

    One of Mish’s trademarks is to speak with knowledgeable people in various subject areas, and report on what they said.

    Today, Mish debunked one of the main pieces of video “evidence” claimed by the mainstream media to prove that Russia was behind the shootdown of the Malaysian plane over Ukraine:

    < snip >

    It is beyond incredibly sloppy for Ukraine to release such a video with a clear billboard of something in Ukraine-held territory, purportedly showing a Buk missile launcher headed back to Russia.

    And we are supposed to believe Kiev? Kerry?

    Please be serious. If you are really interested in the truth, you do not resort to such easily disproved and sloppy bullsheet.

    This is – of course – not the first piece of video “evidence” trumpeted by the MSM which has been debunked.

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/2nd-key-piece-video-evidence-russian-responsibility-plane-shootdown-debunked.html

    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.asp

    Some things never change.
     
    #11 poncho, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
  12. poncho

    poncho
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    Pilots, Air Traffic Controllers Want The Truth Behind MH17

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXerU4QGf20&list=UUvsye7V9psc-APX6wV1twLg

    One more time . . .

    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.asp

    Some things never change.
     
    #12 poncho, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
  13. poncho

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  14. OldRegular

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    PONCHO, You have peaked out on this one. Anyone who would take the word of Putin for anything has lost IT, whatever IT is!
     
  15. poncho

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    First of all OR I'm not taking the word of Putin or anyone else for that matter.

    What snip is wrong with you people? Have you all lost your minds?

    All I have done (my big crime) is ask the resident warmongering neocons that are always the first to jump on Washington and the media's demonization band wagon to show us proof to back up their claims and for this I get treated like a leper?

    Now even you a man I have always respected for being thoughtful and rational has lowered yourself to making false accusations against me? Why? Is your hatred for others that important to you that you'll become a false accuser to protect it? God have mercy on you and your warmogering buddies OR.

    Zaac is right about you people you give Christ and Christianity a bad name. You'll believe any lie no matter how outrageous and unsubstantiated so long as it stokes your fears, biases and hatred toward others.

    Where's the love? Where's the empathy for others? Not among this "Christian" crowd that's for certain sure.

    I used to think there was hope for you all but now I'm convinced there isn't. We've all heard the same lies coming from the same class of liars that have started several wars that have left behind nothing but death, destruction and misery now and all of them have been based on lies, propaganda and demonization instead of rational thought and evidence. Now you want to start another war the same way with Russia that could end us all?

    What SNIP is wrong with you people?

    I can't make up my mind here whether you guys are crazy or just plain stupid. It's probably both.

    Zaac I apologize to you for everything negative I've said to you. You've been right about these people all along. There is no love of Christ in them. If there were it would be their driving force instead of the hatred they harbor toward others.

    God have mercy on this nation for the folly of it's fools.
     
    #15 poncho, Jul 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2014
  16. poncho

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    Yes and it seems to me that those who claim the name of Christ are going to make certain sure that everyone not like them are going to go there based on more hatred, lies and blind stupidity.

    You know Salty I thought I was ready for the time "the love of many would grow cold" but evidently I wasn't ready for it at all. I didn't think Christ's followers could be duped by lies and liars the very same lies and liars so many times over. I kept thinking after each war Washington started based on lies Christians would see the truth about those telling them but no they haven't gotten any wiser at all. All they have done is harden their hearts and fortified their hatred of others.

    When I was growing up and learning of Christ and His love I thought love truth and empathy towards others was suppose to be our guide in this world not lies, hatred and bloodlust.

    Oh and the people accusing me of siding with Putin and being a bad Christian and anti American still have not shown us the proof to back up their claims.

    They've gone out of their way to do everything but.

    Now a wise person might look at the way they have reacted to my simple demand and think hmmm, but evidently they're aren't that many wise people to be found here on Baptist Board.

    Like I said my big crime here amounts to nothing more than asking for proof. For this I get treated like a leper.
     
    #16 poncho, Jul 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2014
  17. asterisktom

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    Why do opponents of opposing political views always label the others as "conspiracy theorists", a phrase, in itself, that is "laden with innuendo"?

    That phrase is a lazy man's way of not deling with opposing facts or points. Mischaracterization is much easier.
     
  18. poncho

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    I can answer that Tom. It's because they've been conditioned like Pavlov's dogs by the corporations that figured out how to manipulate public opinion through propaganda long ago and there by relieving the masses of that burdensome thought process. When the powers that be says drool they start frothing at the mouth and drooling all over themselves. It's easy it requires no thought.

    Look at em! Any other time they'd be calling Obama and his administration a pack of liars but now that he's playing to their deep seated fears and hatred they're siding with him without even so much as a question.

    Proof? Who needs proof when we got hate? <--- Link

    Hey is it to late for me to join Christ's commandos? I can talk just like the rest of you to! Check it out! Let's kill all the Russians!!! They aren't human beings!!! They aren't like us!!! They don't deserve to live!!! Let's kill them all and the sooner the better!!! KILL EM!!! KILL EM!!! KILL EM!!!

    Sieg Heil!

    There how's that? Now can I join the team and claim the name of Christ too? Can I be just like you all now? Can I? Can I? Can I?
     
    #18 poncho, Jul 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2014
  19. poncho

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    Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile”

    The tragedy of Malaysian MH 017 continues to elude any light of clarity being cast over it.

    The flight recorders are in England and are evaluated. What can come of it? Maybe more than you would assume.

    Especially the voice recorder will be interesting when you look at the picture of a cockpit fragment. As an expert in aviation I closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.

    First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the pilots side. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can now hear views expressed of a “potentially tragic error / accident” regarding MH 017. Given this particular cockpit image it does not surprise me at all.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111
     
  20. InTheLight

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    Why don't we wait until the information from the flight recorders are released?

    As to the author's contention that there is a lack of photos on Google showing the crash site, I submit this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=“po...&q=MH017+crash+site&spell=1&tbm=isch&imgdii=_

    As to there not being many hi-def photos on Google of the crash site, it's understandable because if they put a 10 MB photo on the internet it will take a long time to load the web page. Webmasters typically work with 72 dpi photos at 1280 px X 960 px (or less) so the page loads in a second or less.

    The author claims you can hear views expressed of a "potentially tragic error" in Washington. Those words are in quote marks, so apparently he is quoting someone, I presume in Washington. So Google "potentially tragic error" and MH 017 and see what pops up. I'll save you the trouble--three references to the article linked in this post.

    As to the photos of the cockpit allegedly showing entry/exit holes of artillery fire, well, using Google images search for "cockpit MH017", and see what you come up with. I'll save you the trouble--three references to the article linked in this post.
     
    #20 InTheLight, Jul 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2014

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