What happens to children in the Rapture?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Darrell C, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Okay, here is a question I was once asked and I think it is a great question.

    Included in the scope are children that are unborn at the time of the Rapture in both saved and unsaved mothers, as well as children already born.

    This is not a Pre, Mid, or Post view issue, just a question for those that do acknowledge that the Rapture is taught in Scripture.


    God bless.
     
  2. MB

    MB
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    I have found that non-accountability is difficult to prove for all Children born or otherwise. Although I believe they will be in the rapture along with the Saints. My reason for this belief is the nature of a loving and Just God. There is an age of accountability usually around 12 in the Hebrew culture. I have been unable to find anything else to establish it as a fact as to how it will be for them in the rapture, or even if they die before that.
    I can only say that God has been more than fair in forgiving my own sins and saving me. What reason could He possibly have for not allowing children who do not have the ability to know any better. I know God is just either way which ever is allowed.
    Christ said;
    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Little children are already as little children.

    Mat_19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

    Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

    I take this to mean, If we all are as little children when we enter those gates then we all have the innocence of a child.

    Children accept things so easily don't they?
    MB
     
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  3. agedman

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    I am one who holds that children who have not reached the understanding of something being sinful (having their eyes open in the sense of Adam and Eve - knowing sin in the personal heart) are "safe" - not saved unless they die.

    I base that view in part because of the opening verses of Romans:
    8 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
    Because the child is unknowing of godlessness and wickedness, then the wrath of God cannot justly be applied to them. They are innocent until proven guilty under the law of sin and death.

    That does not in any manner prevent or diminish that which I view of a person being totally depraved and without hope, but such a condition abides as applicable when awareness of sin is part of their life.
    Again I look at Romans 1:
    For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

    Such is NOT the thinking of the child who has not matured into accountability. Therefore, because that child cannot fulfill the above verse, they are safe.

    Furthermore, the child's mind does not comprehend the sinfulness of sin. Unlike those mentioned in the following verse of Romans 1:
    Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
    Therefore, all unborn, born, aborted, mentally deficient, ... are "Safe in the Arms of Jesus" (Fanny Crosby) at the rapture, or death - which ever comes first.
     
    #3 agedman, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
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  4. Darrell C

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    Yes, they do, lol.

    I don't really view the quoted passage to infer innocence, because we have a principle established that there really are no "innocents" when it comes to relationship with God.

    And yes, I mean babies in the womb as well.

    Harsh as that sounds, let me explain why I take that view: because I do not see Scripture teaching a good works/bad works, innocent/guilty scenario, but I see Scripture teaching an equal position for all of mankind, summed up by Paul here...


    Romans 3:10-12

    King James Version (KJV)

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



    This has been conveniently been called the Depravity of Man by some, and it is an irrefutable Doctrine in my view.

    Instead, I believe that in view is the approach to Christ, which is to be one of a faith like that of a child. There is no "Age of Accountability" to be found in Scripture, only the implicit teaching of Accountability for sin.

    So the first thing I would mention in trying to address this issue would be to first understand why and how God judges sin. And it is pretty simple, something we can substantiate from any passage from any era dealing with judgment of sin: God judges according to the response of the revelation provided to men (general term which includes women). We see Adam's sin judged, and that sin was in violation of the revelation provided him: "Don't eat of that one over there."

    We see in every instance one becomes accountable for sin when one violates that which God has declared to be His will for man. Paul speaks of three primary means of revelation of the will of God, the internal witness He provides all men, the testimony of Creation, and the direct revelation which has come through God speaking Himself, God speaking through Prophets, and God speaking through His Word. And since revelation is progressive, we know that there is an accountability for the specific revelation of that Age.

    Here...


    Hebrews 10:28-29

    King James Version (KJV)

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



    ...we see that those that reject Christ will be held more accountable than those that rejected "Moses' Law," which is the Covenant of Law, or, Mosaic Law.

    We see that same principle spoken of here:


    Acts 17:29-31

    King James Version (KJV)

    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.



    And here:


    Romans 5:12-14

    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



    So I would suggest that no man has ever been bereft of the revelation God provides to all men, and, God will judge them according to their response to that revelation.

    When we apply that to unborn babes and small children, we know that their ability to comprehend that revelation is limited.

    Does this mean they are excused? A free pass to Heaven?

    No, it just means that God will judge them with the same just grace He showed to men under differing economies of revelation. No-one in the Old Testament trusted in the Cross of Christ, because no-one in the Old Testament had the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, yet, we see men described as being justified by their faith.

    So what is it, then, which we have to consider in order to make sense of this, and come to a reasonable conclusion as to the fate of children and unborn babes?

    As I said, fairly simple, it is just a matter of the fact that all are born outside of relationship with God.

    So for children, and unborn babes, we can say with absolute certainly that our God, Who is merciful beyond our ability to comprehend, will bestow grace to those children, just as He showed grace to men in previous Ages. By all rights King David should have gone to Hell when he died, because when he died the only offering for sin he could present was the blood of an animal. And while God prescribed and demanded that temporary atonement, those sacrifices could not redeem David from an eternal perspective.

    But he didn't. Because of the grace of God.

    Okay, having said all that, lol, now we get back to what happens to children in the Rapture.

    I think if the above is accepted as reasonable, then we consider that the fact that just because someone hasn't sinned (the unborn babe for example) doesn't mean the root problem doesn't still exist. Even for the babe unborn in the womb there is a separation between them and God. They are not united with God as every born again believer is.

    So the stage is thus: the Rapture occurs, and we have believers, unbelievers, children, and even unborn babes in both the wombs of believing mothers and the wombs of unbelieving mothers.

    What happens?

    And sorry, I could just say what my view is, but it's a lot more fun for things to be considered a little in the discussion.


    God bless.
     
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  5. Darrell C

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    I agree with this in large part, but I would ask you to clarify this statement:

    Do you mean ultimately will be saved, or that you think they are saved on an equal basis as those who are born again?

    I'm pretty sure I already know your answer but think it might a good thing to clarify your statement so someone doesn't get the wrong impression.


    God bless.
     
  6. agedman

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    I meant to say the child is "safe" not "saved." I will go back if allowed and "edit" saved and replace it with "safe." I did use "safe" in the rest of the post, and merely didn't mean to put saved rather than "safe."

    Thank you for catching that.

    That child is "safe" and if they die are saved.

    There is no one that looses salvation, so they are not "saved" while alive for they one day will be confronted with the same decision that confronted Adam. That is why I consider the child safe (as Adam and Eve were while in Eden pre-sin).
     
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  7. nailah783

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    I believe that children have an automatic ticket in the rapture. If they have not reached the age of accountability. My dad has always taught that the age of accountability is when you know better and when you are in a position to choose for yourself. So young children that do not understand the word yet, will already be on the list.
     
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  8. percho

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    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
    Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and *of Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
    YLT John 3:3,5 * I replaced, "the," with of because, "the," isn't in the Greek and because of the gentive case of Spirit.

    In reality doesn't Matt 18:3 say one must be born again or born from above?

    Also if it is God who is doing the rebirthing and not we ourselves , could not God rebirth a one year old or one day old child at the time of the rapture?

    At the rapture?
    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:51
    Why? Is it because we use to be sinners?

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

    Or is it because we were not born, fit for the kingdom of God, when we came forth from our mother in the flesh?
     
    #8 percho, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
  9. Darrell C

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    I too believe that accountability is in relation to understanding, not a particular age.

    So does this mean you believe children will be raptured with the Church despite not being members of the Body?


    God bless.
     
  10. Darrell C

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    Just seeking to clarify further, you believe children will be raptured with the Church?

    God bless.
     
  11. Darrell C

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    So you believe that God might glorify children in the Rapture?


    God bless.
     
  12. heisrisen

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    Both sides make great points. It's something we have to study on and rightly divide. It's hard to say for me. I have always believed only kids of saved parent(s) will go. But I'm not 100%.
     
  13. Darrell C

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    I am pretty confident in my view, as the Rapture pertains only to the Church.

    Being a child of a believer doesn't convey salvation to the child, as God has no grandchildren, lol. All are born separated from God, and it will only be by faith in Christ that any person is born again. I can understand speculating that children will receive grace at that time, but, as in the Flood, I believe that there will be children in the Tribulation, and many will die. Unbelieving women who are pregnant at the time of the beginning of the Tribulation will have children who will, if they survive, reach an age of seven (although we do not know precisely how much time is between the Rapture and beginning of the Tribulation, so seven represents the age of those born into the Tribulation), so I see it likely that their babies are not raptured.

    I also see it this way because many argue that the Rapture would be something that the whole world will notice. The truth is that the Church compared to the world is a many/few ratio, and it may be that the number of believers raptured could be less than the number of people that die on a daily basis.

    But anyway, an interesting discussion.


    God bless.
     
  14. JPPT1974

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    I always thought that the rapture is from the end of times. When God sends Jesus back on the Colt to get us all.
     
  15. agedman

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    Yes, unless someone can convince me by Scriptures that I am mistaken in that thinking.
     
  16. Darrell C

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    Many people take a Post-Tribulation view, and there are some very convincing arguments presented for it. However, the primary problem with that view is that if the Rapture takes place at the Return of Christ...that leaves no physical believers to inhabit the Kingdom He will establish when He returns.

    Matthew 24-25 show the progression of what takes place just prior, during, and after the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation, the Sheep and Goat judgment takes place, and the unbelieving population is destroyed in that judgment. The only ones left alive are those who are born again believers.

    We see three resurrections in Revelation, beginning with the Two Witnesses, then the Tribulation Martyrs (which many Post Tribulation believers consider the Rapture), then the resurrection of the dead just prior to the Great White Throne, at which time this current universe passes away. The resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs coincides with the end of the Tribulation and Christ's Return. In that resurrection, only believers are resurrected, and that fits the teaching of the Rapture, but, again, there has to be a physical Church left alive to produce the offspring that rebels at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:


    Revelation 20

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



    Some groups try to bypass this problem by making the Tribulation exclusive to the Middle-East, which allows for an unbelieving population to enter into the Kingdom, but, that in itself conflicts with Christ's teaching that nothing that shall offend shall enter into that Kingdom (just as nothing that offends enters into that Kingdom which we enter when saved), and, I believe, that no-one who is not born again shall enter (John 3, consider that the Kingdom Nicodemus and the disciples and the people were expectant of was a literal, temporal Kingdom).

    This is a great discussion, and to be honest, discussion between Post and Pre Tribulation believers is the best, lol. Thee is a thread entitled "Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom" which has an intent of discussing this very topic if you are interested.

    Thanks for your participation.

    God bless.
     
  17. Darrell C

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    Not sure anyone can be dogmatic on the point. The best I can do is state why I think unbelieving children will not be raptured with the Church.

    The primary reason is that it is the Church that is raptured. God did not spare the children in the Flood, nor at times during the Conquest of Canaan. If we maintain a similar pattern which is seen in numerous places, then we cannot argue God will rapture children out with the Church because it wouldn't be fair for "innocents" to die. The problem with that is that children are not "innocent" from an eternal perspective, they are born separated from God just like everyone else. And while I do think that God will show grace to them, as He did to every Old Testament Saint, that doesn't mean He will make them members of the Church apart from new birth, which is how everyone becomes a member of the Church.


    God bless.
     

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