What happens when we die...

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. jcf

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    Death
    what happens when we die?
    by John C. Ferreira

    Time and time again I hear people make comments about those who have died such as, "He is in a much better place." or "She is with the Lord in heaven." but is this what we find in the clear teachings of the bible?

    Death is always a sad time in people's lives. Sometimes, at the expense of truth, we say things that help to make a grieving person feel better. Jesus had to deal with the same issue when His friend Lazarus died. What was Jesus' response to Larzurus' family and friends?

    John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.'' Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.'' However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.

    John 11:21 Then Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died."But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.'' Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

    When we die we are asleep in the grave. We don't go anywhere we don't think nor do we suffer. For some people this very well may be a better place from what they are presently suffering but it sure isn't the best.

    As we hear teachers of God's word we should never just take what they say without first comparing it with Scripture. People who don't do this begin believing things that are unscriptural. We must be like the group of Jews from a place called Beroea. Acts 17:11 But the Jews of Beroea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and gladly listened to the message. They searched the Scriptures day by day to check up on Paul and Silas' statements to see if they were really so.

    Lets compare the modern day belief of what happens when we die with what the bible says. Though there are many verses that clearly cover this topic we will only be using a few.

    So what happens when we die?
    Todays belief teaches that we go right to heaven or hell when we die. Is this what the bible teaches? Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Here the bible says that we are asleep until we awake, the question is, when do we awake? 1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    The bible says that at the last trump the dead who belong to Jesus will be raised and put on incorruption and immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Before we get immortality the bible says that the dead are asleep in the grave awaiting this resurrection and we who are alive wait to be changed.

    But aren't some in hell burning and others in heaven before the resurrection?
    What does the bible say? Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living at least know that they will die! But the dead know nothing ; they don't even have their memories. Whatever they did in their lifetime, loving, hating, envying--is long gone, and they have no part in anything here on earth any more. This is a pretty clear answer to what happens to all who have died. The dead know nothing nor do they feel anything they stay right where they are until their resurrection.

    Didn't Paul say, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."?
    This is true, Paul did say this but not as a teaching of what happens when we die but rather as an expression of his desire to be with the Lord. We get Paul's whole thought by reading the first part of his statement. 2 Corinthians 5:5 This is what God has prepared for us and, as a guarantee, he has given us his Holy Spirit. Now we look forward with confidence to our heavenly bodies, realizing that every moment we spend in these earthly bodies is time spent away from our eternal home with Jesus. We know these things are true by believing, not by seeing. But we are cheerful; we would rather leave our bodies, and be at home with the Lord.

    So when do we leave our bodies?
    Paul just stated that he would rather be absent from his body and be with the Lord. This same Paul tells us when this will happen. 1 Thess.4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The dead in Christ rise first then those who are still alive will be changed and taken shortly after those who were dead in their graves.

    Didn't Jesus tell the thief on the cross that today he would be in paradise with Him?
    With the translator's misuse of a comma it seems to say this but with a short glance we can understand that Jesus did not say He would be in paradise today but rather Jesus said, "Today I'm telling you, you will be in paradise." (Luke 23:43) We can verify this by reading how Jesus was in the grave for three days (Acts 10:40) and then He preached for forty days (Acts 1:3). Here we have at least 43 days and still Jesus is not in paradise with the thief. There will be a time when He will be but not until the resurrection of those who belong to Him (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). According to Scripture we stay in the grave until Jesus' second coming where we will be raised, this is the hope and joy of all who love His coming.

    2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
     
  2. donnA

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  3. just-want-peace

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  4. BobRyan

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    I 1Cor 15 Paul says that the dead - sleep.

    In 1Thess 4 Paul says that the dead - sleep.

    In 1Cor 11 Paul says the dead saints - sleep.

    In John 11 Christ said that the dead Lazarus - sleeps.

    In 2Cor 5 Paul says that we are in 1 of 3 states.

    1. Clothed with a decaying body while alive here.
    2. Unclothed with any body while dead.
    3. Clothed with our immortal eternal body at the coming of Christ.

    In Romans 8 Paul says our bodies are not redeemed - transformed from this decaying state until the coming of Christ.

    The same point he makes in 1Cor 15 which sets the context for 2Cor 5.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Marcia

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    Seventh Day Adventists believe in soul sleep. They don't seem to get that the word "sleep" as used of dead saints in the Bible was used to mean dead. Dead people can't sleep; only living people sleep. The bodies of the dead saints are as if asleep; their soul/spirit is with God.

    Refutations of the soul sleep doctrine:
    http://immanuelforum.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=143
    More on SDA doctrine:
    http://www.ex-sda.com/

    http://www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm

    http://www.sdaoutreach.org/index.cfm
     
  6. Trotter

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  7. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Amen Marcia!! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Tam
     
  8. Eric B

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    But then, even calling that a "sleep" would not seem to make sense-- if their souls just continue on elsewhere, as if nothing happened. (What difference would it make if it were temporary, then?) In sleep, even though we may dream; we are still oblivious to real-time life (as Eccl. and one of the other OT passages say). I guess it's supposed to be just from our perpsective that they "sleep"? But then if we die before the resurrection; we supposedly go join them; but the hope is never in dying and joining the saints; but in the resurrection itself.

    Now, the preterists, who I have been debating with (here and elsewhere) make the resurrection symbolic as well (either of the covenantal "body "; or just a metaphor for the soul/spirit rising out of the body). That would seem more consistent with the immortal soul theory. A bodily resurrection would really not be necessary with that.
     
  9. tragic_pizza

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    Perhaps the problem is that we try to define eternal things in temporal terms.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Hopefully we can all agree that SDAs did not write the texts above.

    And it appears that there is some agreement in the posts that the sleep referenced is NOT a reference to decaying flesh or to literal sleep.

    It is a metaphore for the unconscious state of the saint. "Lazarus sleeps" John 11 not "Lazarus' body sleeps" and "Lazarus is dead" John 11.

    When Paul says in 1Cor 15 "WE shall not all sleep but WE shall all be changed" the WE is the PERSON - the SAINTS.

    When Paul says in 1Thess 4 "THOSE WHO ARE asleep" he is not speaking of decayed flesh but of PEOPLE that have died and are not conscious.

    It is precisely BECAUSE this doctrine is so clear and so true - that praying to the dead makes no sense at all.

    The dead can not hear us when we pray to them NOR have they any ability to help us. God therefore forbids communicating with the dead "on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19

    It was NEVER the practice of pagans to declare decaying flesh as their gods or the ancestor to whom they would pray. Rather they argued for the "living-dead the spirit-that-survives death" as the being to whom they pray.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    But if this is still a bit confusing - consider that in Matt 21 Christ "Debates" the point of the resurrection and PROVES the resurrection by showing that the dead can not in any way serve God without the resurrection. For God "is NOT the God of the dead".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Eric B

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    Actually; the sleep IS the "temporal" thing!
     
  13. tragic_pizza

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    Actually; the sleep IS the "temporal" thing! </font>[/QUOTE]OK, well, thanks for not clearing that up.
     
  14. Logan

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    Matthew 22:32 is I believe to which you are referring. "He is not the God of the dead but of the living." You seem to have left out an important part of Jesus' saying. In context, this does not support the view you are expounding here Bob. Actually just the opposite for those who "die" in Christ are not dead like the unbelievers, but, live forever. As Christ said they will never die.
     
  15. jcf

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    Matthew 22:32 is I believe to which you are referring. "He is not the God of the dead but of the living." You seem to have left out an important part of Jesus' saying. In context, this does not support the view you are expounding here Bob. Actually just the opposite for those who "die" in Christ are not dead like the unbelievers, but, live forever. As Christ said they will never die. </font>[/QUOTE]So why the resurrection and why receieve immortality, eternal life at the resurrection?

    The resurrection is the great hope and joy of those who are abiding in Christ.

    The resurrection of the righteous is the joy that was set before Christ to endure what He did to be able to call YAHWEH's people into His coming kingdom.
     
  16. wopik

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    Logan

    Christians will never have to experience the "second death" (Rev 20:6 / 21:8).


    It is appointed unto all men to die (Heb 9:27).

    If Christians never die, why do they have to be resurrected -- "made alive" ?


    Those who are Christ's have to be made alive again "at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23)
     
  17. wopik

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    "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, THOUGH HE WERE DEAD, YET shall he live" (Jn 11:25).

    These resurrected Saints will NEVER DIE AGAIN.
     
  18. Eric B

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    In other words; the sleep is a temporal thing, so we can define it in temporal terms. Too often; people use the concept of "eternal things" to allow one to assign any meaning to the words or teaching in question.
     
  19. Logan

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    Greetings jcf,

    Simple, at the resurrection those that have died in Christ will have their bodies reunited with their souls (1 Thess. 4:13-18).
     
  20. Logan

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    Greetings wopik!

    I agree. I dont think I stated or implied we do.


    Yes....and then face judgment. Again..I agree.

    Christians souls never die. That is who we are. "The flesh accounts for nothing" (John 6:63).

    Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are still alive, despite the death of their bodies (and the same is true of Abraham). All of this takes place before the resurrection of their bodies, while the rich man's brothers are still alive.

    There are several more Scripture references of the souls alive after physical death but I am completely out of time right now. Hope to chat later guys...
     

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