What happens when we die?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Michael52, Apr 20, 2004.

  1. Michael52

    Michael52
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    What happens when we die?

    A while back, some co-workers and I were discussing some basic Christian doctrines. The question came up: What happens to people (believers and non-believers) when we die? I was ‘put-on-the-spot’ to give the ‘definitive’ answer! So, I said:

    The spirit of believers immediately goes to be with the Lord in paradise/heaven, where they will wait for the resurrection and the judgment.

    The spirit of non-believers (here I begin to stutter) goes to sheol/hades/hell where they to will wait for the resurrection and the judgment.

    Please, any thoughts, comments, corrections or additions would be much appreciated.

    Michael
     
  2. TWade

    TWade
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    0
    We give up the ghost, and as you've stated, we immediately go to Heaven or Hell.

    Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    Jesus also gave us insight into what takes place at physical death in Luke 16. There is some debate as to whether or not "Paradise," "Abraham's Bosom," and "Heaven" are all the same. However, the truth of our departing to be with the Lord is the same. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.
     
  3. Turbeville

    Turbeville
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    even the ones that go to hell will get a new body and that body will not burn up in the lake of fire but will feel the pain for eternity.
     
  4. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Michael52

    we immediately go to Heaven or Hell.

    Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.


    I used to believe this, too.
    It is what we are TOLD, but it is not biblical.

    -------------

    I found this to be very helpful --

    Why did Paul want to depart and be with Christ? "For I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.” ---Phillipians 1:23-24 NAS. Notice Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.

    There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately. Then why the hurry for departure?

    To understand what is meant here, turn to another scripture where Paul was ready to depart. In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

    In these verses Paul explains what he meant by being with Christ. He does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing----His second coming! In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.

    Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" ---1 Thess. 4:16-17.

    This is when the dead "that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Daniel 12: 2). The dead have not been with the Lord these thousands of years; but they are awaiting the time when they will in the future awaken from the dust of the earth to meet the Lord in the air!

    This is the time when, according to 1 Cor. 15: 52, the dead shall be raised incorruptible by the power of the Spirit of God. This is the first resurrection.

    Now Paul's statement in Philippians is clear. He was willing to remain alive for the sake of the Philippians who needed him as a teacher and apostle, even though he sometimes desired personally to be delivered from troubles - by death - to await the resurrection and be with Christ. To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION!
     
  5. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Michael52
    your answer was correct. Those who die in Christ go to be with the Lord, and will one day be re-united with a body to live in a body forever. Those who die without the Lord go into a torment of holding until they are raised to get an new body that cannot perish and then be sent into the lake of fire for all eternity to suffer for ever and ever. Sort of sad and scary for the latter.
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    Sounds about right to me.

    Actually, those are different places. Sheol/Hades are what in the OT is simply the place where dead souls rested. Hell/Gehenna etc., otoh, is where a person who has rejected the Gospel will go. Some have surmised that a person who have never had the opportunity to accept the Gospel will go to Sheol to await the judgement. Dunno myself, since I've never been dead. I suppose it's possible. I'll have to do some biblical study on that.
     
  7. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Michael
    I also agree with you.

    All 65 uses of the word "Sheol" in the O.T. indicate that it is/was a place of continued conscious existence of the soul.

    The wopiks (Armstrongites) and SDAs teach that death is annihilationism and the soul ceases to exist.

    In 1 Thess 4:14 the Bible says that Christ will "bring with him" the souls of the righteous to be united with their resurrected bodies.
     
  8. Michael52

    Michael52
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, everyone, for your responses. It certainly helps my own thought processes to hear the thoughts of others.

    In my original post, I said “The spirit(s) … will wait …”. I wonder if ‘wait’-ing has any meaning after death. That is, if our spirit exits earthly time and enters God’s time (eternity), upon death, will we also view or experience time as God does? When the dead from OT times, entered sheol/hades/hell what were they ‘waiting’ for? Do people who die today have to ‘wait’ for the resurrection and judgment?

    As you can see, from the above, there are many things to ponder! It seems to me that trying to be highly definitive on these matters is not humanly possible. :confused: I do find it hard to try and explain such things when asked. That’s where the ‘stutter’-ing part came from. Of course, I guess the safest thing to do is just repeat, as best I can, what the bible seems to most clearly state, which most of the posters have done.
    Though it seems, it would be hard to ‘suffer…eternal destruction’ if one did not exist eternally.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Amen. When I die (going through the Valley of the Shadow of Death) God is with me.

    Jesus didn't say to the repentant thief, "Someday you'll be with me in Paradise". How absurd.
     
  10. TWade

    TWade
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    0
    Moses and Elijah appeared with the Lord in Matthew 17, didn't they? Peter saw it.
     
  11. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Bob Griffin

    Jesus didn't say to the repentant thief, "Someday you'll be with me in Paradise". How absurd.


    "I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise".
     
  12. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Russ Kelly --

    The wopiks (Armstrongites) and SDAs teach that death is annihilationism and the soul ceases to exist.

    In 1 Thess 4:14 the Bible says that Christ will "bring with him" the souls of the righteous to be united with their resurrected bodies.


    "The SOUL that sins, it shall die" - Ezekiel 18:4,20).


    In the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown commentary of Psalms 16:10, they point out that the word "soul" in the Bible means the person himself.

    this use of "soul" for the whole person is frequent (Gen. 12:5, 46:26; Ps. 3:2, 7:2, 11:1).

    Holman Bible Dictionary also confirms that the word "soul" - as a holistic image of a person - is maintained even in the NT even over against the Greek culture which, since Plato, sharply separated body and soul with analytic exactness.

    "According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodyless soul." - Holman Bible Dictionary, article, Soul.

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ - type in the word "soul" and see for yourself.
     
  13. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Russ Kelly --

    In 1 Thess 4:14 the Bible says that Christ will "bring with him" the souls of the righteous...

    where do you see the word "souls" in 1 Thess 4:14 ?

    Those who are resurrected will meet the LORD in the air, in the clouds - 1Thess 4:17 (airplanes fly higher than that) and come back down to Earth with Jesus when He once again sets foot on Mt. Olives (Acts 1:11-12 / Zech. 14:4); and they will forever be with the LORD.

    For the LORD will be ruling the NATIONS from Jerusalem (Zech. 14:16-21).

    "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one (Zech. 14:9).
     
  14. TWade

    TWade
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    0
    Move your comma to its proper place (before the word "today").
     
  15. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Move your comma to its proper place (before the word "today").

    the comma was not in the original language.

    Jesus was not going to paradise that day anyways.

    Neither was the thief.

    The dead are dead till the resurrection (1Cor. 15).
     
  16. TWade

    TWade
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's in the English. In fact, in every English translation I checked. It's there because it belongs there.

    So Moses never died?
     
  17. TWade

    TWade
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    0
    Luke 23
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


    I checked all the English translations at Bible Gateway on this verse. Every one of them place the comma before the word "today." Then I did a search on the net for the New World Translation, which we all know is a Jehovah's Witness publication. Guess what? They place the comma in Luke 23:43 in the same spot wopik places it.
     
  18. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    TWade

    which just goes to prove that the placing of the comma is very subjective, since the original had NO comma.

    If you think Jesus and the thief went directly to paradise when they died, you will place the comma BEFORE "today".

    If you think Jesus and the thief both died that day and went to their graves, you will place the comma AFTER "today".

    Each individual Christian will have to decide for themselves which wording is more biblically correct.
     
  19. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    wopik
    Since you are obviously not a Baptist, but a member of Armstrong's cult, I wonder how honest you are with your answers while attacking Baptist doctrine using deceit.

    Negertheless, I will engage your folly.

    First, I Thess 4:14 says "even so them which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Whether the text says "souls" or not is irrevelent. The verb, BRING, is correct Greek and means "bring back" as in "bring back FROM HEAVEN to reunite with their resurrected bodies.

    Second, why do you quote Holman's Dictionary about the soul when your church does not teach what you quote? It teaches that the soul ceases to exist at death.

    Third, the word, "spirit", better denotes what most Christians call the "soul" than does the word, "soul" -- and uyou well know that.

    Fourth, if you spend time researching the 65 uses of Sheol in the O.T., you will discover many texts which describe consciousness after death.

    Fifth, There are separate words in Hebrew for Sheol, grave, death, and tomb. If Sheol and grave were identical, then there would be no use for two different words.

    Sixth, Heb 12:1 says "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us." These "witnesses" are the conscious saints from chapter 11.
     
  20. TWade

    TWade
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    0
    Neither did the "original" have the letter "A" "B" etc. The translators put it there because in our language, it belongs there.

    Their bodies DID go to the grave. But their spirit did not. So, no, the comma is where it belongs - before the word "today."

    But let me ask you; What do you say concerning Luke 16:19-31?
     

Share This Page

Loading...