WHAT I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK By David Cloud

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by TheWinDork, Aug 29, 2006.

  1. TheWinDork

    TheWinDork
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    (Ladies and Gents, This came across David Cloud's Mailing List and I think it bears posting here.... This is to refute that lie that people believe that he's got some kind of cult following...enjoy)

    WHAT I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK - Part 1


    By David Cloud

    I receive a lot of correspondence from readers, and sometimes, after
    I read an e-mail or letter, I am left thinking that I must not be
    getting across the right message. The following are some of the
    messages that I do NOT want my readers to receive from my ministry:

    1. I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK THAT AN INDEPENDENT BAPTIST OR
    FUNDAMENTALIST BIBLE-BELIEVING CHURCH IS APOSTATE JUST BECAUSE IT HAS
    SOME THINGS WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE. Let me make this very clear: I
    do not support those who separate themselves from all churches today.
    While I believe that God's people must be discerning and cautious and
    not overlook error, at the same time we are to be patient and
    faithful to God's ordained institution, the church, and to
    God-ordained pastoral authority, and I believe we should strive as
    much as possible for unity and not disunity among true believers.
    Both things are emphasized in Scripture, though it is not always a
    simple matter to obey both of them at one time. This is why I have
    been a faithful church member ever since I was saved 33 years ago,
    even though I have never been in a church that I considered anything
    like ideal! My article "Keys to Fruitful Church Membership" deals
    with this issue. If you think that you are justified to separate from
    all churches today because of David Cloud's writings, you are
    mistaken. I do not preach that and I am not pleased when people do
    that.

    2. SIMILARILY, I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK THAT THEY SHOULD
    HAVE A BAD ATTTIUDE TOWARD PASTORS AND CAUSE A LOT OF TROUBLE IN
    THEIR CHURCHES. If you have to leave a church, and there are many
    times when that becomes necessary because of sin and error, do so in
    a godly manner and leave a good testimony "as much as lieth in you."
    I believe anything less is not the will of God. I realize that
    compromised Christians can be quite vicious and can tell lies about
    men and women who try to correct error, but we must be careful that
    we do not give occasion to the flesh and fight error in an ungodly
    manner. There is definitely a time to approach a pastor about
    problems, but this needs to be done in a godly and wise manner. God
    has given pastors great authority (Heb. 13:7, 17). Some of them, like
    Diotrephes of old, have abused their authority, it is true; but
    pastoral authority is of God, nonetheless. Not everyone in the church
    has the same authority. This does not mean that we overlook things
    that we believe are wrong. Pastor are not popes and they do not have
    unlimited authority (their authority is limited by the Bible) and
    have no right to demand unquestioning loyalty, and churches must not
    follow pastors in error; but as a church member, I must always
    remember that the pastor has authority that I do not have and that
    he, not me, will give an answer to God for pastoral decisions.

    Recently I heard from a man who is in a church in which the pastor, a
    Bob Jones man, has apparently labeled him a troublemaker because of
    his defense of the King James Bible. He said there is not a good
    alternative church in his area and that his family is being blessed
    there. Some of you might strongly disagree with me, which is your
    privilege, but I instructed him as follows: "I understand the
    difficulty of your situation. Just stay there and pray much for the
    Lord's will to be done in the church and in your family and be a
    fruitful church member who is a credit and honor to his Lord. You are
    not the pastor and you will not give an account for the decisions the
    pastor makes. Your presence and prayers just might keep the church
    from going over to the modern versions. Be gracious and patient in
    all of your dealings, and the Lord will use you. P.S. If the church
    actually goes over to the modern versions, I would strongly recommend
    that you get out. It would be good to be praying for God to send a
    man to your community who will take a stand for the preserved
    Scriptures and who understands the destructive character of modern
    textual criticism and to pray that if the time comes for a move, that
    your family will want to follow you. Be the kind of Christian husband
    and father that will make your wife and children want to follow your
    teaching and leadership."


    (to be continued on first reply)


     
  2. TheWinDork

    TheWinDork
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    3. I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE I WARN ABOUT
    SOMETHING IN A MAN'S MINISTRY OR ABOUT AN INSTITUTION, IT MEANS THAT
    I NECESSARILY THINK THAT HE OR IT IS APOSTATE. Dave Hunt is an
    example. I love Dave Hunt and am thankful for his ministry, but that
    does not mean I will close my eyes to what I believe are his errors.
    I disagree strongly with his relationship with the Calvary Chapels
    and with some other matters, and I feel so strongly about it that I
    have warned our readers, but at the same time I am thankful for all
    of the good things in his life and ministry. The same is true (to
    various degrees) for Peter Ruckman, Jack Hyles, Curtis Hutson, Jerry
    Falwell, the Baptist Bible Fellowship, Bob Jones University, Bill
    Gothard, the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship, and many others. I have
    given some type of warning about all of these people and
    institutions, but I do not consider them enemies of the faith. Unless
    an individual or institution is indeed apostate (to turn from the
    faith), meaning that it has gone off into a false gospel, a false
    christ, a false spirit, and other such cardinal matters, I believe we
    can mark error (public men and ministries require public judging) and
    still have a godly attitude toward those who err, meaning that we can
    still count them brethren and be thankful for them, even if we feel
    forced to point out things that are wrong and even if we feel that we
    must separate from them in some cases (2 Thess. 3:14-15). (By the
    way, if any of my readers happens to count some of these as truly
    apostate, that is your privilege, but I don't.)

    4. I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK THAT THEIR CHURCH SHOULD BE LIKE
    WAY OF LIFE LITERATURE. Some parts of my ministry, the warning part,
    is somewhat unbalanced of necessity. That is the nature of the
    Fundamental Baptist Information Service and even of O Timothy
    magazine, to a lesser degree. I have no intention of trying to be
    completely "balanced" with that part of my ministry. Those are voices
    of warning and exhortation. There are plenty of "positive,
    encouraging" ministries out there; that part of the equation is very
    well taken care of today. But there is little by way of serious and
    pointed warning. The name of Way of Life Literature came from my
    Bible reading one day about 28 years ago, when I read the words in
    Proverbs 6:23: "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light;
    and reproofs of instruction are the way of life." I thought, that is
    what we need more of today; we need more reproofs of instruction,
    and, praise God, such reproofs are the way of life. If done in a
    godly manner, instructive reproof is not destructive but is edifying
    and life giving. To warn people of danger is to help them, if they
    will receive the warning. Thus, some parts of my ministry are quite
    "negative" on the whole and focus on pointing out heresy, exhorting
    to separation, and such things. At the same time, I would not want to
    be in a church that focused on these things. And I would not want to
    see anyone try to make the Fundamental Baptist Information Service
    their "church." A church should most definitely preach against error
    plainly and warn about things. Most churches today fall very short of
    doing what they should in this area, but that is certainly not all
    that a church should be doing or even mostly what it should be doing.
    Separation is crucial, but separation in and of itself is nothing.
    Separation is merely the wall of protection that we put around the
    Lord's work, but having separated, we must busy ourselves with that
    great work, which is described in Matt. 28:18-20.

    When I preach in the churches we started in South Asia, I do not
    preach strictly about the type of things that appear in the
    Fundamental Baptist Information Service. Only rarely do I preach
    about "issue" type things, such as the charismatic movement. The
    overwhelming majority of my messages are about prayer, holiness,
    separation from the world, evangelism and missions, love for Christ,
    faithfulness to the Lord's work, Bible doctrine, and such.

    The 15 Bible college courses I have developed for training preachers
    and church members do not focus on the type of things that appear in
    the Fundamental Baptist Information Service. They deal with such
    things as "How to Study the Bible," "Bible Prophecy," "Church
    History," and "Bible History." Only one of the courses deals
    exclusively with warning of error.

    Even in my writing ministry, I do not focus exclusively on warning.
    The Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible & Christianity and Things
    Hard to Be Understood, for example, took more time to produce than
    probably all of the other things I have written combined, and they
    are tools for Bible study and general Christian living. Thus, even my
    ministry is by no means strictly a warning ministry.

    Do you see what I am saying? Every church should warn plainly about
    error, but a church is not merely a warning station. Please don't
    measure your church by the Fundamental Baptist Information Service or
    O Timothy magazine in the sense of thinking that your pastor should
    be like Brother Cloud. In that aspect of my ministry I am not a
    pastor; rather, I am exercising, I believe, a unique "prophetic" type
    ministry (not referring to prophecy as fore-telling, of course, but
    as forth-telling). My aim and desire is to be a help and blessing to
    pastors in providing them well-researched information to assist their
    ministries, knowing at the same time that there is much more to their
    ministries than warning about error.

    5. LASTLY, I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK THAT I AM ANYTHING. I
    have no desire to create a following of any sort. I do not consider
    myself better than anyone. I am confident that some of the people
    that I warn about are better Christians than I am in some areas of
    their lives and ministries. I am a big failure in many ways. I own no
    Christian perfection of any sort. I am just a man who was saved by
    God's undeserving grace and called to preach His Word. I am convinced
    that God called me to this difficult ministry and I intend to
    accomplish it by His grace and I do think that I have exercised some
    zeal for it and am biblically qualified for it, but I was a nobody
    when he called me and I am a nobody today. I do not preach myself and
    I have no intention of doing so; I preach God's Word. I do not
    measure things by my puny standard, but by that of God's Word. At
    least that is my desire and intention. I want to measure myself by
    the same standard, and I invite my readers to measure me and other
    men by that same rule. "Prove all things; hold fast that which is
    good" (1 Thess. 5:21). John the Baptist was wise and godly when he
    said, "I must decrease." That is what every preacher needs to say.
    The Apostle Paul said, "Follow me as I also follow Christ," and we
    can and should say that; but we must also acknowledge that we are not
    apostles today. The only infallible authority is the Scriptures.
    There is no infallible preacher, none that are even close.


    [Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist
    Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and
    other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS
    PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE
    INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN
    THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who
    personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed
    unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The
    Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To
    SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE
    UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to
    http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble
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    with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary
    work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and
    those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians
    6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine,
    which is in its 23rd year of publication. Way of Life publishes many
    helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site:
    http://www.wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature,
    P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143,
    [email protected]. We do not solicit funds from those who do not
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    made to https:[email protected]]

    Edited to add copyright notice - thanks WD
     
    #2 TheWinDork, Aug 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2006
  3. TheWinDork

    TheWinDork
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    So, you see guys... you're wrong about David Cloud. He ain't another Ruckman. :D

    -WTD :type:

     
  4. EdSutton

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    Job said this best: I'll let him speak for me, here.

    :sleep:

    Ed
     
  5. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
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    I DO NOT WANT MY READERS TO THINK THAT I AM ANYTHING.

    I never have thought much of him.
     
  6. tinytim

    tinytim
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    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    That about says it about Cloud.
     
  7. TheWinDork

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    I think you guys are nasty and it's obvious, [personal attack snipped].

    :mad:

    -WTD
     
    #7 TheWinDork, Aug 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2006
  8. rbell

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    "If thou likest not David Cloud, thou hast not salvation."

    -1 Hesitations 2:26

    Thought I'd put the scripture reference in for ya.
     
  9. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    If y'all took the time to read the article beyond the headline, you'd see Brother Cloud in a little better light.

    He outlines the limits of his ministry.
     
  10. Lagardo

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    You stinkin' liberal! I can spot that revised reference of Hesitations 2:26 a mile a way. The original said:

    "If thou likest not David Cloud, thou has not salvation and thou must stand before thy judgement of Windork" 1 Hesitations 2:26

    Granted, some more modern translations add a verse 27 to read:

    "But fear not the windork, for he will not reply to reason,
    not arguments from scripture."
     
  11. TheWinDork

    TheWinDork
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    Thank you Squire! That is the point I was trying to make. and of course, these cheeseheads on here, don't get it. (but of course, this is Baptist Board, what more could I expect? :rolleyes: )

    Again, Thank you for making that point. :thumbs: :thumbsup: :wavey:

    -WTD
     
  12. Lagardo

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    Which is more than most do in his position. I give him credit for that.
     
  13. av1611jim

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    Four of you guys had nothing but venom to spout.

    Mt 15:18
    But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
    Mt 15:19
    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
    Mt 15:20
    These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    Mr 7:20
    And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
    Mr 7:21
    For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
    Mr 7:22
    Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
    Mr 7:23
    All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


    Your comments reveal your heart.

    Shame on you.
     
  14. Blammo

    Blammo
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    [​IMG]

    Why can't we all just get along?
     
  15. SBCPreacher

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    Now, that would be a MIRACLE!
     
  16. rbell

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    yeah, that's right Jim: shame on me for pointing out that questioning someone's salvation based on your opinion of a particular controversial minister is over the line. Riiiiiight.

    I stayed out of the cloud opinion stuff. But WD went over the line. He questioned the salvation of others.
     
  17. rbell

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    Was I just called a Packer Fan?

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
  18. tinytim

    tinytim
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    I read the article, and he still wants people to take his word for anything he stands for...

    Christians are too lazy to do research for themselves...
    He distorts the truth, and slanders other fine Christians, and you want us to consider what he has to say...

    Lets see, he doesnt like Billy Graham, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley.
    He lumps all CCM into one category and says it is from Satan,
    And then repeats the same ol' KJVO stuff that has proven to be myths as if it is truth from God himself. He doesn't want people to think for themselves....even if he says he does...

    Sorry, I like to think for myself... not let someone do it for me.

    And I hate Greenbay....I'm a Dallas fan!
     
  19. Mexdeaf

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    I must say, I am surprised at the virulent attack on those of us who dared express an opinion. That's all I am going to say.
     
  20. Brandon C. Jones

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    Mexdeaf, me too...it seemed a bit over the line, but oh well.
     

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