What if...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Aug 13, 2009.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    What if one is not granted to come to Christ?

    Can they come anyway?

    Just what needs to take place in this granting from the Father?

    Does this mean that some are not granted?
     
  2. HankD

    HankD
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    I'll take up the challenge:

    No, they cannot come, but for those granted to come, upon what grounds are they granted to come in the first place?

    See your post RE:God hiding Himself.

    HankD
     
  3. Darrenss1

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    And you can't produce a verse to say that God has NOT granted any, that they can't come to Christ. God draws all, some chose to believe while others don't.

    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Shouldn't it say, how can they call upon Him whom they have not been regenerated... Regeneration before salvation..... Inference but not reference....

    Darren
     
  4. Deacon

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    I'll step into the mud,

    There seems to be some word play going on here.

    When something is granted it’s because it has been desired.

    When a person desires to come to Christ, God grants the request.

    Turning it back on you:
    Is there ever a time when one might desire to come to Christ and God would refuse?

    Rob
     
  5. Winman

    Winman
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    OK, I use the KJV, which says;

    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    First, please notice the word "therefore". This shows that this verse is connected to a verse or passage that came before. So, it is not a good idea to look at this verse alone.

    John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    This was when Jesus told his followers that they must drink his blood and eat his flesh. And even the disciples murmured at this. If they had a difficult time believeing this, what would they think if they saw Jesus ascend into heaven?

    Then Jesus explains that he is speaking of spiritual flesh and blood. The flesh profits nothing, it is the spirit that quickens a man, regenerates and makes him alive, reborn. And then Jesus says "the words" that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.

    Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Without God's word, none of us would know how to be saved. We would not know how the world was created. We owe all we know of God to God himself, because he has revealed himself to us by his Holy scriptures. No man can claim that he knew God before God knew him. We know of God by his scriptures. No man knows that Jesus is the Son of God except by God's word the scriptures. No man can come to Jesus by faith except he first be enlightened by the scriptures.

    A man that will not receive and believe God's word cannot come to God, and those that do must give 100% credit to God. For unless God had revealed himself to us, we would all be in the dark, and without knowledge of Christ. So this is what it means by "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father".
     
    #5 Winman, Aug 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2009
  6. RevJWWhiteJr

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    Sins Of The World

    Here are just few,,

    Luke 19:10
    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    That means everybody.

    1 John 2:2
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    That too means everybody.

    John 1:29
    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    "That takes away the sin (of unbelief) of the whole world". Question. Did the death of Jesus remove the sin of unbelief from the whole world? NO ! Many chose not to believe the truth that was (and is) in Jesus.

    1 Timothy 2:4
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    That pretty much says it all.

    God's intentions were for all to come to a knowledge of the truth that is in Jesus. But not all have or will. According to the evidence the Spirit of conviction is sent and speaks to each and every child of Adam, for the purpose of calling each and every one to become a child of God. It is a call that can be accepted or rejected. But, at some point the Spirit will cease to call if rejection is a constant in an unbelievers life, unless intercessory prayer from Loved Ones (family members of otherwise) is not lifted up to the Father on behalf of the lost.


    1 Timothy 1:15
    15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    ALL, sinners.
     
    #6 RevJWWhiteJr, Aug 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2009
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Jesus told some of the pharisees that "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep"

    Notice Jesus doesn't say they are not His sheep because they do not believe (which would support your belief), but He says the reason they don't believe is because they are not His sheep (which supports the belief that not all are "granted to come")

    The sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name and they follow Him. This supports a specific "call" of individuals, not a general "call" to everyone.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    What some seem to be saying is that God is so weak that He must yield to the almighty will of humankind.

    Sorry, not my God!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Darrenss1

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    Just as the scriptures teach that Israel in part has been blinded. The children of Israel were the Lord's sheep, don't you believe that, they were God's chosen earthy people? Yet out of Israel were those that were no longer the Lord's sheep, why should that be a surprise?

    And did you happen to notice this was before the gospel went out to the Gentiles? Also as I said Jesus came first to HIS people. So your premise to use this to prove an "effective" call or an exclusive call is unfounded at that section.

    Darren
     
  10. webdog

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    The sheep similie was to point out that the Pharisees thought they were "in" just because they were Jewish and observed the law. Jesus was pointing out that they were not true ISRAEL ("not all Israel is ISRAEL"). The sheep were indeed those of faith, and the sheep references in Scripture refer to the Jews.
     
  11. webdog

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    Not one person has said that or alluded to that strawman.
     
  12. Darrenss1

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    That is a complete fallacy. Besides I have heard Calvinist state that no man cannot be saved unless they hear the gospel preached from a preacher. God is having to surrender to the will of the christian to preach to whom God wants him to preach to. Shouldn't God be viewed as weak for that?

    God's purposes in using man and allowing for man's response to Him, such as faith and love is not a sign of weakness in God at all.

    Darren
     
  13. canadyjd

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    First, Paul teaches in Romans (which you are alluding to) that those who are true Israel are called the "children of the promise", and are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. These are the ones which Jesus is referring to as His "sheep".

    And Jesus doesn't tell them they are "no longer" His sheep. He tells them they don't believe because they are not of His sheep. Jesus give the reason for their unbelief....they are not one of His sheep.

    Jesus isn't calling them by name, as He does with His sheep.
    This passage specifically mentions Jesus calling the "other sheep" from another fold that will be united with the fold from the Jews. This is a reference to the Gentiles and the coming church which Jesus will die for.

    I notice you didn't address the words of Christ. Jesus said they didn't believe because they were not of His sheep.

    Clearly, if they were of His sheep, they would have believed.

    The emphasis of the passage is on Jesus who calls by name each of His sheep. This is obviously a specific call to specific people. It cannot mean a general call to everyone.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. Darrenss1

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    I said "Israel" are His sheep as a generic term, that is Israel from the time of Moses at Mt Sinai until that present time, the people of Israel were God's chosen nation. Of course out of the Israel some will be believing in God while others will not be. I never said that wasn't the case. Now the issue is that Jesus was not claiming that "His sheep" hear His voice are unbelievers but they are (His sheep) believers. That is the context as I see it.

    Still that would be irrelevant to your first point and would not support an argument to say, the sheep from the "other fold" are actually HIS sheep while they are in the other fold.

    You didn't ask.

    They would be HIS sheep IF they were believing. Obviously since they were not believing they were not HIS sheep.

    Jesus knows all whom are HIS sheep they the sheep follow Him as HE is their Shepherd, that is ALL whom are believing in HIM. Saved people not unsaved sinners.

    Darren
     
  15. canadyjd

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    And I said that true Israel is made up of both Jews and Gentiles who are the children of promise.
    "Believing/unbelieving" is a major theme in John. Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice, He calls them by name, and then they follow Him. They are His sheep before they are called, before they respond by believing and following Him.

    The context, from chap. 9, is the man who had been born blind. The entire story is how this man is sought by Jesus, and eventually responds to the revelation of Jesus with faith (saying "I believe" and worshiping Jesus) all for the glory of God.

    Jesus sought him, called him, and he responded with faith. He was His "sheep" before he had faith in Jesus.
    Of course it supports my view. They (the gentiles whom are chosen for salvation) are already the "sheep" of Jesus, even before they believe. Jesus will call them by name and they will respond with faith and follow Him.
    You are changing the words that Jesus spoke.

    You are claiming they are not His sheep because they didn't believe, but Jesus said the reason they didn't believe was because they were not His sheep.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  16. Winman

    Winman
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    In contrast to Calvinism, the Bible teaches that Christ died for all men, and that God is not willing that any should perish.

    1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Jesus made the full payment for sins for all men, and any man can be saved. However, the only way to receive this gift is by placing one's faith in Christ.

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    It is not that Jesus did not die for all men. It is the method by which one must take hold of this free gift from God. God only offers it through faith in his son Jesus, a person cannot come any other way. If you try to come by your own works you will fail. If you believe you will be saved because you are the decendent of Abraham or belong to a particular church you will fail. You can only be saved by coming to Jesus Christ in faith.

    And it is clear that God does not choose before time who will believe and who will not. For Paul clearly shows that some of these Jews who were cut off because of unbelief can turn and trust Christ.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Here Paul is speaking of Jews who are lost at this time because of unbelief. They are said to be branches broken off of the olive tree. But their fate has not been decided, Paul shows in vs. 23 that if they turn from unbelief to belief God is able to graff them back into the tree.
     
  17. Jim1999

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    How does a spiritual corpse do anything?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  18. Winman

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    What? You do not believe that God can speak to the dead? And you say us non-Cals limit God's power? Who's doing it now?

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Who passes from death to life in vs 24? He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me.

    In vs. 25 Jesus says the hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

    This is not speaking of the resurrection, because Jesus said the hour NOW IS. It was happening then. The resurrection of the dead is future.

    Jesus is speaking of the resurrection in vs. 28. Notice he does not say "and now is", but only that the hour is coming. This is speaking of the future resurrection. Also notice in vs. 28 that he does not say the dead, he says "all that are in the graves". So this is speaking of the physically dead who will ALL be raised at the end of time. Notice Jesus does not mention the resurrection after vs. 25 but does after vs. 28.

    So, vs. 25 says only the dead that hear will live, but vs. 28 says all that are in the graves. So the Lord clearly distinguishes between the two.

    You Calvinists are always claiming that us non-Cals do not believe in God's power, but yet you cannot believe that Jesus can speak to the spiritually dead. Well, the scriptures show otherwise.
     
    #18 Winman, Aug 27, 2009
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  19. Jim1999

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    You have God taking the first action, but in salvation you have a dead man taking the first action.......Those verses you quoted have nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith!!!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  20. Winman

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    I have never claimed that man takes the first action. I have said from the beginning that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Without the scriptures, not a man on Earth would know a thing about the true God or Jesus Christ.

    I have stated over and over that the order in salvation is:

    1) Hearing the word of God (originates from God)

    2) Believeing the word of God (man's choice)

    3) Receiving the Holy Spirit and being quickened (a miracle of God)

    How many times have I shown this verse?

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    There it is for probably the 20th time I've presented it. You hear the gospel, believe it, then receive the Spirit.

    Man's only part in salvation is to choose whether to believe God or not. If God did not present the gospel, man would have nothing to believe. And it is God giving the Holy Spirit that regenerates and quickens a man. So 100% of the saving is of God.

    And in John 5 Jesus says the dead will "hear", and those that "hear" will live. Jesus can speak to the dead, ask Lazarus. But always throughout scripture you first see the preaching of God's word, then believeing, then receiving the Spirit.

    Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

    What are we told to do first? Incline our ear (God's word). Then what? Come (believe). Then what? Our souls shall live.

    It is always this order, study and see for yourself.
     

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