What is Calvinism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother James, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here are a series of nine messages adressing most of the concerns and questions anyone might have about the doctrines of grace.

    LINK TO MESSAGES

    [ February 07, 2006, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  3. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinism is a system of belief whereby:
    1. Man by the irrestable grace of God and by eternal decree must choose God when the Holy Spirit goes after him.
    2. Man, who has only the will to choose to do that which is sinful before God, is supposedly brought into the eternal grace of God yet does not lose his will to do wrong.
    3. Man who is negligent, selfish and ignorant of God and a willful sinner is changed by the grace of God to be saved yet God does nothing for him to lose the will to sin after he is "saved". God leaves him in frustration because of the war between the flesh and the spirit until he dies.
    3. God saves man by eternal decree and leaves him in a battle of survival until death.
    4. Yet in Calvinism it is taught that God loves that man.
    5. It is also necessary to state that no Calvinistic/Sovereign Grace grandfather can set his little granddaughter on his lap and teach her the song..."Jesus Loves Me" without being a liar because he doesn't know if she is one of the elect.

    Thanks ---Bart
    ....pray hard and squeeze the trigger gently.
     
  4. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    You don't seem to have a very good grasp on theology my friend.
     
  5. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    You don't seem to have a very good grasp on theology my friend. </font>[/QUOTE]Either that or you don't have a very good grasp on the Bible.

    Ya see, Everything has "two sides", so question everything, get the correct answer from the spirit, then you'll know the truth, in spite of what people may say.

    Pr 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother James,
    Thanks for the link.
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bartimaeus I know you will find that Calvin believed all the children of the saved will be saved and their children onwards. This is the reason he baptised babies, it is a Calvinist belief that our children are members of the Body and some believe they should be included into the community of believers as soon as possible in baptism.

    I'll leave the rest as I want to see where you are coming from with this new doctrine of Calvinism.

    Brother James is succinct.

    john.
     
  8. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gentlemen,
    I give you the infamous LBC, section 10, no.

    1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
    ( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

    Isn't it interesting that man would "come most freely, being made willing by his grace". God changes a man's will before he is saved and does nothing for man's will after he is saved.
    Peter states in I Pet 2:11 to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul. God once again "saves" a man against his first will and then leaves him with his second that can destroy his life. The God of Calvin was not consistent.
    Thanks -----Bart
    ....pray hard and squeeze the trigger gently.
     
  9. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, the Spirit that changes his will from it opposition to God to an embrace of him stays within him sanctifying him.
    (Chapter 13: Of Sanctification, London Baptist Confession.)
     
  10. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bartimaeus.

    1 Cor 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
    1 Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

    We believe God enters His Temple and remains. We have become one. We the Body He the Head.

    5. It is also necessary to state that no Calvinistic/Sovereign Grace grandfather can set his little granddaughter on his lap and teach her the song..."Jesus Loves Me" without being a liar because he doesn't know if she is one of the elect.

    It sounds like someone has taught you Arminianism and told you it's Calvinism. Surely an Arminian could not say they believe their children and their children are saved. You are very confused but I have a feeling you like it like that?
    Calvin says my children are saved from the womb which agrees with the scriptures and is a proved doctrine of many as many baptise infants in recognition of the fact. Your source of info is faulty. You should learn Calvinism from Calvin before you try to pull him apart. Learning your Calvinism from Arminians will be your undoing. You just pass on to others what others are saying and how far away are the scriptures now?

    Meet the family.

    1 Cor 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

    So what? Are you the one to teach God how to treat His Children?

    john.
     
  11. jw

    jw
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    0
    One of my old profs, Dr. David Winget, used to say, "God wills your willer" ;)

    Man can say, "I chose God," but God is the one who made that come about by His Sovereign will. Man's will wasn't violated, it was orchestrated.
     
  12. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the God of Calvin "orchestrates" this wonderfull sin overpowering life then why all the admonisions in the scripture otherwise. My point is and I hope I can make it this time: When the Spirit of God does the change to make him willing, why would that same Spirit stop so short as to leave a man in a war? If it glorifies God to effectually call and save, (in the way Calvin described it) why doesn't that Spirit fully reinstate?
    Thanks -----Bart
    ...pray hard and squeeze the trigger gently.
     
  13. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    A couple of points:
    </font>
    • The change by the Spirit of God to make people willing to believe is necessary for there to be any believers at all. No one would believe without it. That this sort of change is necessary is not because of any act of God, but rather because the results of the fall are so dire.</font>
    • When we are glorified, the same Spirit will make us forever willing to always obey, so it isn't really as if the Spirit stops short. Why God makes total salvation from all of the effects of sin a process rather than one single act is something I don't know, but it seems he's chosen to overcome one result of sin first (unbelief) and then begin working from there on out to overcome the other results of sin, consummating in the last day in our glorification when every last vestige of sin is overcome, summing up all things in Christ.</font>
    • I'm not sure why this question is more of a puzzle for Calvinism than it is for any other system. In every system, you have a Spirit who is powerful enough to completely overcome sin forever in one fell swoop, but he doesn't.</font>
     
  14. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    Calvin might have said this but the Bible doesn't support it. The Bible teaches that each individual must decide whether to accept or reject Jesus Christ. It must be nice to have had your your great, great, great, great grandfather "known" to have been one of the elect. Then you can just sit back and never be born again and go to heaven. The Bible says:

    Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
     
  15. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    That spirit does stop short. According to this system it started the activity on it's own and of God's volition, not man's. ("it isn't really as if") I have heard that before.

    The question you now pose is easy to answer. It is a direct and specific puzzle for Calvinism because no other system portrays "God" as the orchestrator of the "orchestra" as Calvin does. The God of Calvin is inconsistent.
    Thanks -----Bart
    ...pray hard and then squeeze the trigger gently.
     
  16. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    0
    John Piper also has some excellent material on Calvinism.
     
  17. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, because the one who began the good work in us will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Yes, our spiritual birth is worked by the Spirit (not on his own, but in response to the will of the Father), but it's a birth into the infancy of spiritual life. It's a start of something--something new, but not something mature.

    You don't complain that physical birth is a stopping short, do you, because we're not born as adults?

    And the orchestrator of the orchestra chose to have our physical birth mirror our spiritual one. He gave us a picture in our physical life of the way he works in our spiritual life. Just as we are born physically not of our own will, we are born spiritually not of our own will. He certainly could have made those he caused to be spiritually born to be born as mature and perfect glorified spiritual beings, but he chose to use the growth process instead.

    BTW, who is the orchestrator of the orchestra if it is not God?
     
  18. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello StraightAndNarrow.

    Calvin says my children are saved from the womb which agrees with the scriptures and is a proved doctrine of many as many baptise infants in recognition of the fact.

    Dt 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Eze 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.

    My Father wants His sheep to have comfort and peace and that would be impossible if we feared for our kids. Our Children are His Children and theirs and theirs. Never fear, always comfort, He loves us.

    Maybe then you can explain how John worked it out in the womb? Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

    Maybe you would like to give me the scripture that says all babies that die are damned? :cool:

    It isn't as far as I have found. The ones I've told, who have Christian parents, are most put out on the whole and reject the notion that they did not save themselves. :cool:
    As for me I wouldn't know as I am the first in my rather large extended family. Not an hint of a Christian as far back as any remember.

    I never found no one going to Hell because they believed scripture. HaHa! I see them going to Heaven not believing scripture. HaHa! :cool:

    I worked it out man. The conclusion came swiftly. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. My trembling has ceased hasn't yours? That would be because you have not worked out your salvation.

    I don't know what you mean by sit back but regeneration takes place in the womb much like John the baptist witnesses to.

    What you think? :cool:

    john.
     
  19. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother James,
    I have read and read the posts about Calvinism, and the other views. I never thought about the subject as much as I have lately. I tend to agree with most of the points. I guess my hardest (maybe my lack of understanding) subject to overcome is the element of free will in the process.
     
  20. bjonson

    bjonson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    0

Share This Page

Loading...