What is sin nature?

"Our brother Jesus"?

What part of scripture justifies this heresy?

(John 10:30; John 17:11)

 

HP: Amen.:thumbs: Sin is formed only as the will chooses to form intents in agreement with selfishness. Sin is willful rebellion to a known commandment of God. Every definition of sin in Scripture is in accordance to this truth. ‘Sin IS a transgression of the law.’ ‘Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.’ ‘To him that KNOWETH to do good, and doeth it not to HIM it is sin.’ Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.’

HP: Here I might disagree slightly. God did not design our flesh with a proclivity to sin. I believe that is a direct result of the fall and the natural consequences of generation as it affects the sensibilities. We are not born in every sense as was Adam. We have warped sensibilities that crave selfishness in a manner unknown to Adam and Eve in their sinless state. They were created with perfect sensibilities and perfect appetites. They were granted the ability to override those perfect natural appetites, which they obviously did bringing physical degeneration to every subsequent member of the human race.

HP: I agree with this. :thumbs: Flesh can only be seen as sinful when one is making reference to the ‘whole of humanity’ or ‘men dwelling in physical bodies’ that have sinned and became guilty before God.

HP: I might say it this way. When man sinned his spirit died in the sense that it was no more alive alone to God and His will, but had became dead in the sense of being ‘unwilling’ to obey God and His commands. This spiritual death eliminated any and all possibility of man being reconciled to God without God first building a bridge, allowing for the atoning work of Christ via the shed blood of Jesus Christ to atone for sins that are past.

I see us, before coming to Christ in repentance and faith, as dead spiritually, We have chosen to sin voluntarily, separating us for eternity from our God. We have been completely cut off from hope of eternity with God apart from God providing a pardon for sins that are past. That relationship that once was afforded of fellowship with God via obedience to His commands has been put to death via our rebellion and sin. By the atoning work of Christ alone and our obedience to the conditions of forgiveness God has enjoined can that relationship with Him be restored.

 

You say sinning is willful transgression of Go's will. Isn't it true that flesh does not have a will independent of its normal functions and independent of my will? That is why I wouldn't say that flesh does not have a proclivity to sin, but rather that it has a proclivity to be fulfilled. We have the will that will determine if the way our flesh is used is glorifying to God or not.

What difference do you see between the term sinful nature and your term "warped sensibilities"?

Isn't it true that our wills actually do want to obey God? Look at what Paul says in Romans 7:18-19 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Paul's will as an unbeliever was to do good, but he did not have the means to perform it. He found the command to not covet to be death because it showed him his inablity to be free from sin. He could say he did not murder or steal but this one got him.

Adam's relationship with God was not afforded to him because of obedience; it was granted to him by God merely creating him. His place of residence changed after he sinned, but he continued to have a relationship with God.
We rarely consider the role eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had on Adam. I think this effected his relationship with God. He now had a knowledge of good and evil without an ability to perform it. What a terrible place to find himself. This is where you and I found ourselves before we were saved. I remember it and am thankful you and I have now been "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

And not only created unto them, but able to do them.

Romans 8:3-4 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

 

HP: I do not recall ever saying that. What I have stated is that sin is a transgression of the law, or sin is disobedience to a known commandment of God, etc.

HP: True, unless one is using the word ‘flesh’ as that which is denoting mankind or one being part of that which is denoted as humanity. Flesh can be speaking of the mere physical or again, mankind or part of mankind as a whole.

The will of man is clearly distinguished from the physical and it is clearly distinguished between the sensibilities of man. The sensibilities of man influence the will, but the will is not under bondage to the sensibilities if in fact the individual remains a viable moral agent. If the will becomes under such bondage to the flesh and sensibilities that it is impossible for it to do any thing other than what it does, the will is no longer free and the individual has ceased to be a responsible moral agent. Such a one at that point may be pitied, but never blamed or punished for failure to do the impossible. All blame or praise would be focused upon acts and choices that led up to that bondage, choices antecedent to losing all ability to act contrary to that which now is seen as necessitated apart from actual formation of moral intents.

HP: Are you certain you said this as you desired? It seems hard for me to follow your point as worded. Could you restate it for me? Thanks.

HP: When the term ‘sinful nature’ is used, it is more than likely referring to the state commonly known as original sin. That is a concept foreign to Scripture. On the other hand, if we limit the word ‘nature’ to its most common usage, i.e., that which pertains to the physical flesh, and view sinful as a ‘tendency’ to sin rather than transgression, I would agree that or nature, with its warped natural sensibilities, indeed has a tendency to sin, and as such in common parlance, can be seen as a sinful nature. I generally do not refer to it in that manner due to the obvious misunderstanding it might imbibe with the notion of OS so prevalent in Church circles today.
Let me stop here for now to see how we are being understood so far.

 

1. The Bible teaches that our will is sinful by nature.
2. We are held responsible for our actions.
3. God is just in all that he does.
Thus all of your statements are wrong.

As to your first statement:
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
--As soon as one is born, by nature they go astray speaking lies. They have a sin nature. They are born with it. I have four children. I didn't have to teach them to lie, to cheat, to steal, to do those things which are evil in God's sight. They knew how to do those things from the time that they were born. They were born with a propensity to do evil. It is in their nature to do so. But I did have to teach them to tell the truth, to be honest in all their doings, to be upright, and ultimately to lead them to the Lord, and allow Him to change their lives.

The Bible calls the unsaved: "children of the devil" (John 8:44), "children of wrath," "children of disobedience" (Eph.2:1-3), "condemned already" (John 3:36).

Therefore Jesus said:
"You must be born again." You must be born again, because you are not in God's family. You are in the wrong family, the devil's family. You have the wrong nature; Satan's nature, "the prince of the power of the air," the god of this world," "he that committeth sin from the beginning;" a sin nature. Every man has a sin nature, and thus the propensity to sin. Is it any wonder that Jesus said:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He said "You must be born again" three times. He said it because you have a sin nature. That sin nature will cause you to reject Christ and that sin will keep you out of Heaven.

And yet at the same time, we are still responsible for our own sin. God did not make us robots. He created us in his own image and likeness with a will to do good or evil. He gave us a mind to choose. We are not programmed automatons. He do have choice. You choose to sin; all men choose to sin. When we stand before God someday we will give account for all that we have done in this life whether good or bad.

And finally, to suggest that God is unjust needs no comment. It is blasphemous.

 

Yes, many, many times. The psalm is an imprecatory psalm, a psalm of judgment. But that is not the point is it? Whether the psalm was of judgment or of praise, truth is truth. And the Lord clearly said in that Psalm:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

It doesn't matter whether or not the psalm is imprecatory, or whether or not it speaks of judgment. The truth of verse 3 remains the same. It is a constant. It is a timeless truth. Black just doesn't suddenly change to white because you think the context is different. Not here. The wicked speak lies as soon as they are born. They are born with a sin nature. You cannot twist that Scripture to mean anything else.

I did. You didn't even attempt to give a meaning to the verse because you cannot. The meaning is so clear that you cannot deny it. Man has a sin nature. Say it. That is the teaching.

Jesus was telling the Pharisees that their spiritual father was the devil himself; they needed to be born again. But they would refuse and crucify him instead.

It is as literal as John 8:44, isn't it?
If you are not saved, you are a child of disobedience, a child of wrath. In fact, let's look more closely:

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
1 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
--You walked according to the prince of the power of the air--Satan himself.
--You are a child of disobedience.
--You are by your own sin nature a child of wrath.

This is what the Bible literally says about you. It says it about all men, before they are saved.

From another thread that you have started, I will assume that you do not know him. But you have heard. Therefore you have no excuse, and the wrath of God remains on you until you believe. The same is true for everyone. The argument that you put forth against OSAS is non sequitor.

If one is not born again he is left with a sin nature that controls his natural flesh. But if one is not born again, no matter how many times he reads John 3, he will never understand it, so I can see where your confusion comes from.

 

Ok.

Agreed

Sorry. Was in a rush with 30 people coming over for Mother's Day. Double negative shouldn't have been there. Should have read "That is why I wouldn say that flesh does not have a proclivity to sin, but rather that it has a proclivity to be fulfilled. We have the will that determines if the way our flesh is used glorifes God or not."

How about this question. Did Adam have "a tendency to sin" before he sinned? If he didn't, why did he sin? Most people think he was something above human before he sinned. I don't see a big difference between his flesh when he was created and mine when I was born. Other than thousands of years of corruption handed down through the gene pool resulting in various deformities, weaknesses, etc., what difference do you think there is between him prior to "the Fall" and us? In other words, what happened to Adam's flesh when he sinned?

 

HP's remarks on Psalm 58:3

If one would take the time to read this short Psalm in it’s entirety, one would come to the plain truth that this Psalm was NOT written in any way to support some notion of original sin or inherited depravity, not only because of the context but the fact that the Jews did not hold to inherited depravity in the least. There was no place in their theology for such a notion. Original sin was simply foreign to them.

The context of the Psalm clearly indicates two groups of individuals being addressed. From verse 3-9 David addresses the wicked and speaks clearly to their final destruction. David cries out to God to let “every one of them pass away that they may not see the sun.” He proclaims that God is going to destroy ‘all’ of them and wash His feet in their blood. Is DHK holding to the belief that God is going to wash His feet in the blood of innocent babies, millions of which are the product of the abortionist’s knife? God help us!

Starting with verse 10-11, David shifts his focus from the wicked and onto the righteous. He states, “10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

One thing is clear. David is not trying to establish a dogma of original sin in this text in the least, but rather is simply contrasting the wicked with the righteous. He in NO way insinuates or states that the righteous are as the wicked, neither in birth nor in life.

In simple terms, David was just expressing in poetic terms that the wicked appeared to be wicked from the earliest light of moral agency, and that as soon as they were able to understand and communicate, even from a very early age, they appeared to him to be engaging in wickedness. Nothing in this passage establishes any such idea as original sin would indicate and DHK wrongly assumes.

 

Oh, please. That was the weakest argument I've seen you make yet. Yes, the saved are part of the family of God; but to call Jesus "brother" puts us equal with Him. And since scripture tells us Jesus is God, then calling Him "brother" puts us equal with God.

Surely you're not placing yourself on God's throne?

I'd love to see more scripture that supports this thought process (not logic, nor lyrics to a song; but scripture that says Christ is our brother; I'm looking, but haven't found it yet).

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Edited to add: Y'all don't visit a website called TheologyOnline, do you? I think y'all would fit in nicely there.

 

Because the third verse of Psalm 58 is couched in the context of an imprecatory psalm does not take away from the truth that it is teaching. It still teaches that we are sinners from birth. You may want to deny that. But you cannot deny that from context alone. You cannot simply allegorize it away. It is a truth taught in Scripture. It is there for a reason.

I told you what it is about. It is an imprecatory psalm. If you don't know what that means then you need to find out. That is all I need to say on the subject. The rest is self-explanatory. As for verse three, I have explained that verse in detail to you, and you have offered no other explanation other to say that it can't mean that. That is quite lame, isn't it?

What you say may be true, about the context being the psalmist's enemies), but that doesn't negate certain truths that are taught within the Psalm. The parallel to that is the passage where the Lord speaks about the specific wickedness of the people of Noah's time. And yet he does make this statement that is applicable not only to the people of Noah's time but for people of all generations:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Speaking of the generation of Noah, the Lord makes a statement that is applicable to all men: "that every imagination of the thoughts of all men are evil continually.
This is what one may call a timeless truth. It was applicable back then, and applicable today. It speaks to the depravity of man, and man's sin nature.
The same is true of Psalm 58:3. It is a timeless truth. The truth is timeless in spite of what the rest of the context says. We don't throw out truth just because the psalmist is speaking of his enemies. The truth is still there. Man is still a sinner with a depraved nature as soon as he is there.

How many children have you had? And do you still call your children fetsuses? The expression is "as soon as they be born."

I know many mothers that can attest to the veracity of that verse.

You don't have to see the actual words to understand the theology being taught.
You don't have to see the word "trinity" to know when it is being taught. The same is true in John 8. The new birth is referenced. It is rejected by those who are called "children of the devil." They have not been born again.

The words of both Paul and Jesus are very literal. The meant what they said. They were children of the devil. And so is every person born into this world; thus the necessity of being born again. One is born with a sin nature. He sins, not only because he wants to sin, but because his nature gives him the desire to sin. Man is not born "good." He is born "evil." Jesus said: "There is none good but God." Paul said: "There is none that doeth good, no not one." One doesn't become a slave to sin; he already is one--as soon as he is born, just as Psalm 58:3 teaches.

There is no difference between a "simple" non-believer, and a "complicated?" non-believer as you would have one to believer. An unbeliever is one who has rejected Christ no matter how much knowledge he has received. He is a child of the devil that needs to be born into the family of God. It is that simple. Nicodemus needed to be born again. Jesus told him that three different times, and he tells us the same thing.

Very true. We all have a sin nature--both before we are saved and after. The difference is: that after I am saved, I am a sinner saved by grace. But I still am a sinner. The sin nature is not eradicated and never will be until the resurrection and Christ gives me a new body.

I will accept your testimony on face value. But when you deny the omnipotence, omnipresence, and omnipresence of God, it makes it difficult to see how one can be a believer. When one denies the very essence of who God is, how can they be a believer? You use the arguments of an atheist, and then claim to be a believer in Christ. You have me confused. So don't be offended if I thought that you were not saved.

Don't become easily offended. From now on read the "you" as generic, meaning you as in all people. "The wrath of God abides on you (all who have not received Christ.) This is what the teaching of John 3:36 teaches. Rejection of Christ is the sin that condemns one to Hell.

Go back and read again. I deliberately used the pronoun "one" thus not referring to you personally.
And you are correct. Repenting and committing your life to God does not get you to heaven. You must be born again. But you (one) must understand what it means to be born again.

I haven't taken time to explain what it means to be born again, so how would you know that?

Paul writes in 1Cor.2:12 that only the saved can understand the things of the Spirit of God. He then writes in verse 14 that the unsaved cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. The Ethiopian Eunuch of Acts 8 was reading the Scriptures and could not understand them until Philip came and explained them to him. An unsaved person needs one who has already been born again to tell them how he can be born again. The unsaved will not be able to do this on his own.

The only reason Nicodemus should have known about these things is because he was a Rabbi, a teacher of the Jews. He had much of the OT committed to memory. He was well acquainted with the OT, and what it already said about the new birth. Jesus rebuked him for not applying the OT teaching of the Messiah to what he had come to know about the Messiah that he knew he was standing before him.

I do not fully understand all that is written in the Bible. But I do understand the theology behind the New Birth. I am fully capable of explaining that doctrine to anyone who asks.

 

HP: Now that is certainly a telling statement. Forget the context when it does not fit the presupposition that DHK brings to the text.

 

Good. We agree that Christ is not actually our brother, and that we shouldn't be placing ourselves on the same level as Him.

Oh, puh-leeze. I asked, didn't I? Gave an opportunity to explain? While calling it as I saw it? Don't tell me you do anything less; you're the one that lets people know straight up that you believe they're misinterpreting scripture and using it out of context, no holds barred.

Look at the tone of your posts to DHK and others, and then remove the mote from your own eye. Don't ask for politeness while you're insulting others.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

You are trying to squirm your way out of your own misconceptions. The Bible never referred to a fetus. When the child came out of the womb, when it was born as the Scripture specifically says. then it is not a fetus, it is a child. There is nothing said about a fetus. You are caught in your own deceptions and misunderstandings.

Actually, both Psalms and Proverbs are very literal.
Psalms are prayers. When a man prays his plea to God is quite literal in that he is pleading and interceding with God on behalf of himself and others. How much more literal can one be! Do you pray? Do you ask God to answer your prayers? Are your prayers specific? Do they have meaning? The psalmist didn't just pray: "God bless all the people of the world." He prayed with intent and meaning, and his prayers were quite literal.

The Book of Proverbs is a book of wise sayings meant to be taken literally inasmuch as in the truth that they teach. There are many adages and wise sayings, timeless truths, etc. The truths are simple and easy to understand. But you should be able to see that for yourself. Besides all that, I never quoted from the Book of Proverbs anyway. So concerning this book, your objection is a red herring.

I would be better if you just gave up.

That is progress.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1. No believer will ever be condemned.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)
2. Salvation is based on faith. Faith always has an object; it is not some nebulous thing. The object of our faith is Jesus Christ and what he has done for us. Faith is confidence; trust in the word of another; in this case it is confidence in the word of God that Christ paid the penalty for our sins.

No, I am not sure what or who you are speaking of.
The Bible says that Jesus knew the hearts of all men. Those that were saved received the message that Christ was the Messiah, the OT message "God with us," the One that came to save us from our sins. These are OT truths about Jesus Christ.

If my son says: "I hate you," he is still my son. That will never change. Even believers stray from God at times. They sometimes get discouraged. But that doesn't mean they lose their salvation; their status with God. But as long as man never comes to know Christ he is condemned. Rejection of Christ is the most serious sin a man can commit. It is the only sin that will condemn a man to Hell.

The Bible is very clear on this subject:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--Your argument is with God, not with me.
Paul states that the unsaved man cannot understand the Word of God.
Luke records that the Ethiopian Eunuch could not understand the Word of God without someone else's help.
It is also recorded many other times how the eyes of others were opened when the Word was preached to them. The unsaved man cannot understand the Word of God on his own.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Start another thread on the new birth, and I will be glad to explain it to you. To do it now would derail this thread.

What you were taught wasn't necessarily the truth; or perhaps you misunderstood what they were teaching which is more likely the case. Committing your life to Christ has nothing to do with salvation.
Repenting of all your sins won't get you to heaven.
Belief, in and of itself, will not save you.
You have many false assumptions regarding salvation.

What is false? Being born again is false? I don't think so!
A simple prayer won't save you. Saying words don't save. Commitment means nothing when it comes to salvation.
It is true that there needs to be change when one is saved. That is one thing you have straight.

 

1. I don't believe you know what faith is.
2. God is omnipresent, and that means that he can be found on the moon (just as believing astronauts said), and on Pluto (if man should ever get there), or where ever man goes. God is everywhere.

Psalms 139:7-10 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
--One cannot escape the presence of God; He is everywhere.

3. God did not "need" to die on the cross. He did so because he loved us enough to take the penalty of our sin upon himself so that we wouldn't spend the rest of eternity in hell. "For the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God in Hell).

4. Yes, God knows all things--the very number of hairs on your head, even as they change from year to year, the number of stars in the universe, the number of grains in the sea, the ocean, in all the bodies of waters everywhere. He knows all things. If he didn't, he wouldn't be God.

Wno is God?

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 44:24-25 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

And finally take heed to this verse:

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?