What is sin nature?

I'm not trying to cause trouble, but I'm not sure what you believe.

Are we condemned at birth?

Or are we condemned when we commit our first sin?

Also, Adam did not have a sin nature, yet he sinned. Obviously, it's possibe to be a sinner without having a sin nature.

At this point, I'm still going to say again that Jesus didn't sin because He was/is God.

Being fully man, he had a human nature, which is capable of sinning. Being fully God through the power of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, He cannot sin because God cannot sin against Himself.

I believe the human nature part of Christ is what enabled Him to feel what we feel and be tempted as we are. But because He is also fully God, He cannot sin.

 

The reason Jesus said, "You must be born again," is simply that we are not automatically put into God's family at the time of birth. In fact the Bible teaches that we are automatically outside of the family of God. (What happened to infants is a different subject).

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--We become born into the family of God by believing in Christ; by being born again. Scripturally we are outside of the family of God, and thus by default born into Satan's family. See Eph.2:1-3.
We are born with a sin nature.
God created us in the image and likeness of Himself.
When Adam sinned that image and likeness was marred.
When one is born again that image and likeness is partially restored, especially as we are urged to become "conformed to the image of Christ.
When the resurrection takes place "we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is." Thus, at that time the image and likeness of God will be fully restored.

I think your question is too vague. Remember that David said concerning his infant that David would go to him. He was sure that he would see his infant in paradise. God takes infants, though they have a sin nature, to heaven because of his mercy. Aborted babies go to heaven, even if they were of Muslim parents, entirely of God's mercy.
We all have a sin nature. But we also are all accoutable for our sin. There comes a time when a person realizes that they are accountable for that sin, and they begin to understand also that the remedy for that sin is Christ. That is "the age of accountabilibity." All people, having reached that age, and do not trust Christ will stand condemned before Christ. I hope that answers your question. Rejection of Jesus Christ is the sin that condemns one to Christ.
There are many unknowns that we must leave in God's hands.

I am a dispensationalist. Adam lived in a period of Innocence. He was created perfect. When God created all things in six days, God looked back upon his creation (including Adam), and exclaimed that all things were "very good."
Adam didn't sin because he was perfect. When he did sin, it was of his own will. He chose to rebel against God. Eve was deceived; the serpent (inhabited by Satan) was more subtile than any other creature in the garden. She was deceived. But Adam rebelled.

When Adam sinned he was cursed. And that curse fell upon all men. We inherit it from Adam. There is only one race on this earth. It is called the Adamic race. That which we inherit from Adam is our sin nature. It shouldn't be difficult to understand the nature of genetics without going into DNA. It is one simple characteristic that we all inherit from Adam--a sin nature.

Christ, like Adam, did not have a sin nature. Unlike Adam, Christ did not sin. Christ is also called the "Second Adam." The first Adam brought sin into the world. The Second Adam brought salvation from sin.
He couldn't sin because he was God.
He couldn't sin if he were to die for our sin.
He wouldn't sin as a man, though it were possible for him to sin. If it were not possible for him to sin, then all the temptations that he went through were meaningless. Why was he tempted in the wilderness if he could not sin? He was tempted as a man, and as a man had the possibility of sinning just as Adam did. But Christ kept himself from sin; not because he was God, but because:
1. He was born of a virgin and thus had no sin nature.
2. He had the power to overcome sin as he submitted himself completely to His Father while on earth.
He remained God and man at the same time. He is the God-Man: wholly man and wholly God at the same time.

He was fully man with a human nature. He didn't have a sin nature for he was born of a virgin and not of a man--rather conceived of the Holy Spirit. When he was tempted, or thirsted, or was wearied, or felt pain, he laid aside his divine attributes as God and suffered as man. Being God was not the reason that kept him from sin. He did not use that "as an excuse." He was perfect man. He had to suffer as man, not as God. God doesn't suffer.

He didn't have a sin nature because he was born of a virgin.
Certainly God cannot sin.
But it was not God that kept him from sin. If that was true all temptation would have been in vain. He was tempted and suffered "with the feelings of OUR infirmities, not with God's infirmities. God does not have infirmities. He suffered as a man, not as God.

 

From an Orthodox viewpoint and upon further study on your own you’ll discover how closely Protestantism follows Catholicism in this regard…remember all of the Reformers were former Catholics and they were trained in Augustinian Theology…

For Orthodox, we understand that through Adam (one man) sin entered the world and with it came death. Since all creation now dies and is in a state of corruption, anyone born into this state will eventually sin, and their sin will result in their spiritual death.

Orthodox Christian anthropology teaches that man was created by God to worship him in communion with him, made in his image to attain to His likeness. All human beings are thus of infinite value, because they bear the indelible stamp of their Creator. All human beings are composed of both a soul and body, which are permanently part of human nature. Man was created sinless, but not perfected, and so though Adam was pure when he was created, he was created as a being of dynamic progress, capable of growing more and more like God.

At the fall of man, Adam and Eve not only sinned in violation of God's commandments, but their ontological state shifted. Their nature was not changed in itself, but the image of God in them became obscured by sin, which is an ontological separation from God. Fallen man is thus not totally depraved, but rather suffers from the disease of sin which renders holiness much more difficult to attain to.

All of mankind suffers from the effects of sin (death, sickness, and all evils), even if a particular individual may theoretically not have committed any personal sins. Guilt does not enter into Orthodox anthropology, since it is essentially a legal category and not directly relevant to the existential reality of man's sin illness. Thus, even if you hear the term original sin in Orthodox theology, it is understood not as a transmitted guilt for Adam's sin, but rather as an inherited disease which may be cured in salvation, enabling the Christian thus to return to the dynamic path of growth in God's likeness.

You’re right…Christ is fully human and fully divine. At no time, whether in the womb of Mary or as a child was Christ not fully human or fully divine. As you pointed out, Christ being fully human, allowed Christ to identify with His creation…He hungered, thirst, had emotion and was tempted.

Key difference was, as you say, He was/is God. Meaning, Christ’s humanity submitted to His Divinity.

InXC
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Exactly. But nowhere in scripture have I ever read that the woman does not pass on the genetic sin nature. This is why Catholics invented the notion that Mary was sinless, else she would have passed on the sin nature to Christ. Basic genetics that even the ancients understood.
The mother passes on all sorts of genetic qualities to her offspring. Just one look at my son and you will know he is my child (of 22 :laugh: ) because we look alike. But you are telling me that the mother passes on all genetic features except the nature?
Sin nature means that one has the ability to sin. Not that they are born "in sin" and under it's spiritual condemnation.

So, man cannot be born a "sinner" or else Christ would have been a sinner also.

As fully human (because of all the genetic qualities passed to Him through Mary, including the human nature or sin nature) He could have sinned. You said yourself that He could have sinned as a human. That must mean that He had the same "sin nature" or ability to sin that Mary had. And He had it because she passed it to Him. So this nature must be passed on from the mother as well as the father.

Having a nature that is able to chose sin instead of obedience to God does not make one a sinner.

But as fully God, He could not have sinned.

Having Mary as His mother, Christ was human.
Having God as His father, Christ was God.

The fact that Christ was sinless had nothing to do with the notion that the sin nature is only passed through the human father, but rather because He was God.

The doctrine of original sin is bunk.

 

The doctrine of original sin as the Catholics define it may be bunk.
The virgin birth of Christ is under attack today, and even by Baptists.
It is one of the most important fundamentals of our faith.
Without the virgin birth Christ could not be fully man and fully God. Neither could he be the sinless Son of Man. The virgin birth ensures all of this. It also ensures his rightful heir to the throne of David. All of this would have been destroyed had he been born of Joseph.
Had he been born of Joseph he would have inherited a sin nature passed down through Adam, which would have given Christ the propensity to sin. It would have made him a sinner by nature. Was Christ a sinner? Was Christ born a sinner? If he was born through Joseph or by any other man he would have been. Forget about your DNA theories for a moment, and consider that Mary was a woman, simply a vessel used of God in a certain time in history to bring forth God incarnate. She gave birth to God in the flesh who was conceived (not by man), but by the Holy Spirit. Much of that is a mystery to us. The whole DNA thing is a mystery to us and we need not speculate on it. All that we know for sure is that our sin nature is passed down from Adam through man. I believe that Agnus and myself basically agree on this. If we don't we are not to far apart.

Understand the curse. Adam and Ever were made perfect. Adam sinned. He brought a curse, not just upon himself, but upon all mankind. Now all mankind, through Adam are sinners. In fact the entire creation is subject to the second law of Thermodynamics--all things are in a state of decay. We wait for the day of our redemption. If Adam had eaten of the fruit of the tree of life, he would have lived forever. So your theory about the DNA goes out the window. It is not the DNA. It is the curse. And the curse is passed through Adam. But Christ died for that curse.

Even if a man could be absolutely perfect or sinless in his life (which he can't) he cannot escape the curse:

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--We are cursed because of Adam, even if we are perfect. But we can't be perfect.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ was made a curse for us, and has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Back to Adam:
The command:
Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
--Adam did die. He died immediately, spiritually, and he died later physically. He could have avoided both.
Death means separation. He was separted from God spiritually. He no longer had the fellowship with God that he had before. It doesn't mean that he was lost. He was still God's child. But he was separated by sin, just as sin separates the believer from God. He was not restored to a right relationship with God until God sacrificed an animal and made coats of skin for them.
--After 930 years he died physically. That didn't have to happen. Had he eaten of the tree of life, he could have lived forever. But death came as a result of his sin (both physical and spiritual).

Genesis 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Adam was cursed.
The ground was cursed.
All of nature was cursed.
Adam would have to toil and work with difficulty the rest of his life.
Adam woud die and return to dust.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--Through Adam sin entered into the world.
--Through Adam death passed upon all men.
--Through Adam all have sinned. Why? Because all have inherited Adam's sin nature.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
--What judgement came here, and why do men die? I believe the judgement is the inheritance of a sin nature, and we die because of it. "The wages of sin is death."

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
--This is the strongest evidence yet for the sin nature being passed along from man to man. By Adam's sin we are made sinners. How? By Adam's sin nature being inherited from man to man.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
--Our sin nature gives man the propensity to sin.
Look again at Psalm 58:3. We sin as soon as we are born. As parents we must teach our children to do right; to tell the truth. We don't have to teach them how to lie; how to do wrong. They do it automatically. They have a sin nature which they inherited from Adam.

 

This is what I disagree with.
You say that we are sinners by nature at birth. If that is true then we are all born condemned. That is why Catholics baptize babies. That is original sin.

I am saying that we are not condemned until we willfully sin. Babies are innocent, having committed no sin. They are still under the curse of physical death, but are not born spiritually dead.

 

That's totaly depravity of man and if you're a Baptist, that's what your denomination teaches, if you agree or not. They don't use the term "original sin", b/c it sounds to Catholic...and to side step the babies being sinful, they throw-in the "accountability" clause for good measure...

It's questions like these that jump started my journey and away from protestantism...

InXC
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I am not aware that Baptists teach that we are condemned at birth. I've not heard that preached in the last 2 Baptist churches I've attended.
I am aware of the "age of accountability".

Do you believe we are condemned at birth and in need of infant baptism?

 

Yes, we are condemned at birth. But the superstition of water does nothing for a person. Yes they are still under the curse of physical death. A baby can die at any time. Death escapes no one. There are many on this board who have had either miscarriages or infants who have died. Most are assured that they will see those infants in heaven though they were under the condemnation of sin. Their "salvation" is in God's hands, not ours. God is a merciful God. No man or person is born without sin.

There is a thread on this in the theology forum. The example was given:
If an infant was given to a stranger what would happen? He (normally) would start crying. He is naturally prejudiced toward his own mother or parents. At a very young age he is able to discern his own parents. At a very young age he is able to discern good from evil.

The illustration serves to point out that we have a sin nature even from birth. But the sin nature comes from Adam. Thus the necessity of the virgin birth. Amy, answer me: Why was it necessary that Jesus be born of a virgin. Why was that so important to God?

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

Of course not…

I explained it a little in a pervious post, but I’ll try to articulate as accurately as possible what I learned in our Orthodox Catechesis class.

First St. Augustine (a Roman Catholic Church Father) seemed convinced that the guilt resulting from Adam’s sin is transmitted through the sexual act, from generation to generation, like some deleterious gene. This “original sin” must be removed immediately, hence the RCC will baptize babies shortly after birth and hence the term “limbo” for those babies that die before baptism.

This is also at the point when the “Immaculate Conception” was developed. How could Mary pass on this “original sin” to Christ? To get around this hiccup, Mary had to be free from “original sin” at her birth…

The Reformers (all of whom were Catholic and was steeped in Catholic theology) took Augustine’s theology and each developed it farther to suit their ideology. I can’t speak for Presbyterians, Methodist (I only visited a Methodist Church briefly), the different types of Baptists, Lutherans…ect.

I was an Independent Fundamental Baptist and we taught “total depravity”, meaning we inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin and are sinners by nature and by conduct and are therefore under just condemnation without defense or excuse. Therefore, we babies are born they are inherently sinful, only Baptist generally refute infant Baptism, so to get around their hiccup, they throw-in the “accountability” clause.

The Orthodox Faith is a little different. The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers taught that what we inherit from Adam is not sin or his consequent guilt, but mortality. We inherit the sting of death. Death has spread to all humanity, as an inevitable consequence of our fallen nature; yet each of us, under the threat of death, rebels personally against God, the Author of Life. This means that our guilt is our own; we bring it upon ourselves.

We Orthodox baptize infants, but it’s not the same reason as Catholics, it’s more about being brought into a family. Neither do we need the “accountability clause”.

Hope this helps a little…

InXC
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That means that all infants that die, go to hell. Jesus said that he who does not believe is condemned. I guess babies don't believe?
This makes no sense to me.

I agree that water does nothing for salvation. I know that everyone is under the curse of death.
How are people assured they will see their infants in heaven that have died? Certainly they cannot be assured of that if the infant was born condemned.

Infants cannot discern good from evil. That is ridiculous.

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Yes, the sin nature originated with Adam. But we all have it, including Mary, who also passed it down to her offspring. That is what made Christ fully human. Without the same nature as all humans, he would NOT be fully human, only partly human.

One reason is that He had to have one human parent in order to be fully human. And since men can't have babies, it had to be a woman.

Having God as His father, instead of a human father made Him fully God.

A child being born of a virgin is without a doubt a miracle. Only God could have done it.

The virgin birth was a sign of the birth of the Messiah.

 

Very interesting. I'd like to do some research on the Orthodox faith. Can you provide a website?

I'm not sure what you mean by the accountability clause. Could you explain?

 

How can a soul die when it sins, if it is born already dead!!!

Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

BBob,

 

Well Bro. Bob, that is an excellent question!

Do you agree with me that we are born innocent and only become condemned when we sin?

 

The word soul(s) means life(lives).

NET Bible: Indeed! All lives are mine -- the life of the father as well as the life of the son is mine. The one who sins will die.

TNIV : For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child -- both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

Many times in the Bible when the word soul is used in the KJV it means life, that's another reason why the newer versions are to be preferred.

 

When the Law enters into us, then we become accountable for sin and sin becomes sin.

Yes, I agree but word it a bit different.

BBob,

 

I think you are speaking as if the soul was the whole man as used mostly in the OT. Either way, the inward part (soul), dies when we sin. Regardless of which version you use, it would include the inward soul.

BBob,

 

Is this what you mean?

Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

 

The trinity makes no sense to many either. We believe what the Bible teaches whether or not it makes sense to our puny minds. The RCC didn't understand it either so they invented doctrines that you allude to in order to explain it away.
You are so right. Babies don't believe. I refer you to David. Did David believe that he would see his infant in heaven? Yes or no.
The mercies of God don't have to make sense to you. But you can have faith in a merciful God.

I ask you again: Was David assured of seeing his infant in heaven? Why or why not? Is God a merciful God? Are you able to depend on His mercy?

2 Samuel 12:22-23 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Psalms 58:3 teaches differently. I go with the Word of God.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Having a sin nature does not make Christ human. It makes him a sinner, and less than God. God is not a sinner. He is the perfect, sinless Son of God. A sinful sinner cannot die and pay the penalty for another sinful sinner. Christ had to be the lamb of God who took away the sin of the world: the sinless lamb of God. You are saying that Christ was a sinner. That is a terrible accusation.

The sin nature is passed through the male. Thus Christ had to be born of a virgin. Study the Scriptures on this issue. It is the only way that Christ could be born without a sin nature.

This is simple human reasoning. What does the Scripture say.
God Himself left heaven and came down to earth in the form of a man. At no time did Christ ever leave his deity behind. At no time was he never God. At no time did he ever cease to be God or the second person of the triune Godhead. He was God manifest in the flesh (John 1:14)

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There were many signs of the Messiah coming into this world. His virgin birth was only one of them. If that was the only sign then it would have all been for naught. The virgin birth had a much greater purpose than fulfilled prophecy. It was absolutely necessary. For without it Christ would have been born a sinner.

 

The Trinity makes sense to me, even though I can't explain it. Does that makes sense? :laugh:
I am not inventing doctrines.

Of course God is merciful. That has never been in question.

That does not prove that humans are born condemned. Obviously, babies do not speak, let alone speak lies. This figurative language.
All people sin.

DHK, you really must stop accusing people of things they did not say. I know that Christ was NOT a sinner. I never, ever even implied such a thing. Just because I disagree with you does not make me a heretic.
I am not really comfortable using the term "sin nature". We have a nature that is capable of sinning and we do sin, but we are not God. Jesus is God. He does not sin. Again, you have not shown any scripture stating that the "sin" nature only comes from a male.

I don't see that. I see that Adam's sin caused the fall of the human race, but not that it is only passed through the male from that point on. Women are sinners too.

Absolutely!

I said the virgin birth was a sign. I did not say it was the only sign. It was neccessary because Jesus had to be all human and all God.