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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Sep 21, 2013.
what is the minimum a sinner need to know and understand in orderto get saved by God?
Or at least, he/she doesn't need to know it is "theology." All he/she needs to understand is that they are a sinner in need of a Savior, and that He is Christ, by His shed blood, death, burial and resurrection. Sure, that's theology. It doesn't come from study or knowledge. It comes from the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The sinner doesn't need to "know" anything. He/She just needs God's grace, mercy and healing.
The minimum amount of "theology" for salvation is the amount the Holy Spirit imparts to an elect person when regenerated.
theology = theos (God) + ology (study of) = study of God.
If you know nothing of God you cannot be saved. Perhaps the "God" you are trusting is the god of the Hindus, or the god of the Muslims. Theology is required.
A theology of who God is. (Theology proper)
A theology of who Christ is (Christology)
A theology of salvation (soteriology)
A theology of the Holy Spirit (Pneumatology)
A theology of sin (harmatiology)
A theology of man (anthropology)
One doesn't have to know eschatology (last things), or of the doctrine of angels and demons, but of all the other doctrines, they are usually included in leading a person to Christ whether you realize it or not. You cannot be saved without doctrine. You cannot be saved without theology. It is impossible.
Salvation isn't about knowledge its about faith.
Thinking you need knowledge in order to get saved a) misunderstands salvation and b) is Gnosticism.
Christ doesn't say: "Come learn about me."
Christ does say: "Come follow me."
Faith in who? Who is the object of your faith? Is it Christ? Which one? The Christ of the J.W.'s? The Oneness Pentecostal's? Which Christ?
A higher knowledge outside the doctrine of the Bible is gnosticism. That seems to be what you are putting forth.
What is salvation? If it is not defined according to the doctrine set forth in the Word of God it is no salvation at all. The RCC teaches salvation too--baptismal regeneration. Is that salvation? Oneness Pentecostal teaches both works and tongues are necessary for salvation. Is that salvation? What is the doctrine of salvation according to the Word of God. If your soteriology is not correct then you don't have salvation.
Check your facts. "Christ did say come learn of me."
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Christ said many things.
Here is one of the most important:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
It follows after this statement.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Really.....so you dont see faith as an act of mans will then? Luther would beg to differ with you. He saw it thus & then claimed it tantamount to the error of Roman Catholicism, which insisted that the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation. Of course he would know because of his RC Priestly background.
ZILCH if your a Monergist :love2: IE ascribing all the glory to God by insisting upon the total spiritual impotence of man, an Election based solely upon the good pleasure of God, an Atonement intended only for the elect though sufficient for all men, & a grace that can neither be resisted nor earned. :thumbs:
So you need to be able to expound on Christology and Pneumatology to be saved?
This isn't true. Gnosticism combines aspects of "secret knowledge" and "spiritual knowledge" for salvation. Those who know more are granted salvation and higher salvation than those who don't.
Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-9
Soooo...in order to be saved you have to have the "right" soteriology to accept the baptism of the Holy Spirit and received justification of our souls? This is one of the more dangerous things you've said.
Ah, yes, this is why using a modern version is more helpful.
Christ didn't say "and learn of me" as we might understand that phrase. Instead, and the Greek supports this, he said "learn from me" which all the modern version use in clarification. It isn't that the KJV got it wrong, they simply meant something different by it. Even the NKJV gets the translation right.
A more contemporary version helps here. Your point is in error.
I see nothing in these verses that says we need to get our soteriology aligned to every jot and tittle in order to be saved. Your view is dangerous and needs to be corrected.
Yes, if the person does not know Christ how can he believe in Him whom he knows not. Have you ever witnessed to a Muslim? Does the Oneness Pentecostal understand who Christ is when he doesn't understand the trinity but rejects it? If they don't know who Christ is they cannot believe on Him who they know not.
How does Christ save? What does it mean to be born again? What is the function of the Holy Spirit? When a person is saved is he totally ignorant of the Holy Spirit's work in his life? Is he ignorant that conviction of sin is from the Spirit of God; that Christ comes and lives in him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Do you leave a person in complete ignorance when explaining salvation? I pity the people you talk to. You present a dumbed-down Jack Hyles type of salvation message according to what you say here.
You are confused. "higher salvation vs. lower salvation" What on earth are you talking about? Do you know what salvation is? There is only one way to be saved, and that is through Jesus Christ and his atoning blood. That message is found in the Bible, and that is doctrine. Without doctrine one cannot be saved.
Cults can explain those too.
Unless they are explained they mean nothing.
The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.
They need one who is saved to explain these things to them such as Philip explained the Scriptures to the Ethiopian eunuch. They need doctrine.
Soteriology is the fact that Jesus came to save sinners; that he died for your sins, and you need to believe on him to be saved. It is that Christ died, was buried and rose again (1Cor.15:1-4).
And you say that doctrine is dangerous. I wouldn't want you teaching in my church.
You are offended because I proved you are wrong.
Rationalize away. The sense is the same. Come to me. Learn either from me or of me. That is what he said. That is what you denied he said. The fact remains the same. You were wrong and don't want to admit you were wrong.
But I wasn't wrong, and you know it.
Without doctrine one cannot be saved. It is plain and simple. Without doctrine one knows absolutely nothing about God, Christ or salvation. And that is not dangerous, but rather dangerous not to know.
Knowledge isn't the same thing as doctrine. Epistemically these have differentiated to a substantial degree. We aren't saved by knowing Jesus, Judas knew Jesus. Judas had the right doctrine but a no faith.
Faith is different than knowledge.
I'm not confused about the basics of soteriology. We certainly agree that to be saved it must come through Jesus Christ's atonement. Salvation is exclusive to Jesus' work and God's gift through faith in Jesus Christ.
Doctrine has nothing to do with individual salvation. There is no verse in the Bible that says right doctrine precedes salvation. That isn't part of salvation.
Just because a cultist uses something doesn't mean it invalidates it for our use. Where cultists and Christianity separate is over the orthodoxy and application. Cultists are fundamentally wrong.
Whoa, hey man, I have never said doctrine is dangerous. Please don't put words in my mouth.
My point is that we are not saved after being able to enumerate the orthodox tenants of soteriology. We are saved apart from that, though being able to do so might be a sign of a saved soul. Being able to grow in our knowledge of doctrine and being able to expound on various parts is a development of sanctification.
Justification is entirely set apart from sanctification. Justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness that seals us into salvation. Sanctification is our growing holiness after we have been justified.
I'm not offended. This is a discussion about an important topic.
So what is it:
- Do we learn of, about Christ prior to be saved.
- Do we learn from Christ after being saved.
That is a very dangerous thing to say. We are saved apart from knowledge. Faith is not about knowledge but it is about a gift from God that imputes Christ's righteousness into our lives. Knowledge is not part of the imputation of righteousness.
You have to know the gospel as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15;
1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The FIRST thing you have to know and believe is that Jesus died for your sins. This is why I believe those who teach Limited Atonement are teaching another gospel. If you believe in Limited Atonement, then you cannot honestly tell another person that Jesus died for their sins.
In fact, if you believe in Limited Atonement, then you cannot be sure that Jesus died for your sins. If Jesus only died for some people, your personal confidence that he died for you doesn't make it so. You could believe a glass of poison is a glass of water and safe to drink, and it will kill you anyway. Your faith does not determine fact. So, if Jesus did not die for every single person, you have no idea if he died for you, and therefore it is impossible to place faith in Jesus as your personal Saviour.
You have to understand Jesus is God's Son who lived a perfect sinless life and died for your sins. You have to also believe that God raised him from the dead. This is the gospel that Paul preached.
And herein lies the danger of Calvinism. Faith always has an object. In Christianity the object of our faith is Christ.
Faith does not come from God. You can't prove that from Scripture; it is the Calvinistic myth. It is nowhere taught in Scripture. It is an absurd thought to think that God would give the unsaved either a spiritual gift or the fruit of the Spirit in order that he might be saved. Ludicrous!
One must put their faith in Christ That is the message one hears throughout the Bible. Without knowledge it is impossible to have faith (unless your faith is blind). Blind faith is fatalism.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Once one hears the gospel and understands it, he is able to put his faith in it, or he is able to choose to reject it; thus the command to believe. The choice is his. It always has been.
You started out good ,in your first post....and now...a relapse-
The only danger would be when someone turns from the revealed truths of that teaching.
yes it does...yes He is:thumbs:
sure it does
yes we can, and we have several times...evidently you are unable to welcome that truth still....
It is scriptural truth that Calvinists believe...you do not.
It is...we show you...you deny it
all of the elect were at a point in time unsaved when God granted them the gifts of repentance and faith by His Spirit.
The fruit of the Spirit is only for those who have first been given the Spirit at regeneration.....the unsaved have to be born from above first ,before fruit of the Spirit can be produced in the life.
none of us believe this, you just keep saying it.
not all men have faith[saving faith]...it is the gift of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
No man being dead and bound in sin ...CANNOT...understand , or respond savingly apart from Divine life and enablement.
The apostles never told anyone in scripture that Christ died for YOUR sins.
They told them that Christ died to save sinners.....
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I beg to differ, but that is exactly what Paul said;
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Now, your argument is going to be that Paul did not say "our" sins. Your argument is going to be that scripture does not mean what it obviously says.
Paul could have said "the elect's sins" if he wanted, he could have said Jesus died for "some men's sins" if he wanted, but Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said that Jesus "died for OUR sins".
I believe the scriptures for what they OBVIOUSLY say.
And the verse you quoted supports my view, how many men are sinners?
cannot argue with this fact:thumbs::applause::thumbsup:
And Hebrews 4 shows that the same gospel is preached to all men;
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Verse 2 tells us the gospel was preached to "us" as well as to "them" (speaking of unbelievers) but it did not profit those who do not believe.
So, these persons heard the same gospel Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15, that Jesus "died for our sins", but it did not profit them because they did not believe it.
In fact, this whole passage does not make sense if your view is correct (it isn't). If a person is saved simply because Jesus died for their sins, there is no reason to warn folks that they might come short of the promise of salvation if they fail to believe.
Jesus died for every man, but you must believe on Jesus to be saved.
Hello again Winman....here is a good example of how you wrest things
You try an assume what I would say and you feel on safe ground...but you have missed it right from the start.....and will continue to do so, unless you change your ways...let me show you why.....
You are wrong because you do not consider who paul wrote to///I will help you-
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
called to be saints,
with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
The beginning of the letter tells us who he is writing to..the church, them that are sanctified, called to be saints, those who call upon the Lord....
You see it Winman...now read your verses again with this group in mind...
If you did you would agree with us...:BangHead: