What is the point of this warning?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    For if WE sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge HIS people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on the prisoners, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The point is to encourage people to demonstrate the reality of their faith by continuing to hold fast their profession and not forsake the local body of Christ (vv. 23, 25). There are some who will fall away and demonstrate that their faith was not real, that they had not been reconciled (3:14).

    But take heart ... in all your many posts, you have finally hit on a difficult passage. This one actually takes some serious thought. [​IMG]
     
  3. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    So you admit this passage was written to born again believers correct?

    I wonder why the writer of Hebrews would tell these born again believers the following:

    1. For if WE sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

    2. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

    3. The Lord will judge HIS people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    4. Therefore do not throw away your confidence.

    Why would the writer say these things to born again believers. Do you believe that YOU are subject to those things PL?
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Sheesh ... here we go again ...

    It is written to people who, by their association and profession, are prseumed to be believers. Their perseverance is the evidence of true salvatoin. The author of Hebrews tells these born again believers this in order to encourage them to continue in the faith. You can see that in Heb 3, as well as all through the book.

    And Yes, I am subject to the warning. And so are you. We are told by Peter to make our calling and election sure. Yes, you have it whether you believe it or not. Persevere to make it sure.

    Have you really not studied this?
     
  5. Ben Elohim

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    So then you advoczte lying to people by telling them on one had that their election IS sure and on the other hand they must MAKE IT sure. Is that correct?

    And you also imply that the Hebrews writer is a deceiver who would otherwise deny that anyone could fall short of salvation when jesus comes but at the same time uses warnings that they might.

    Unfortunate.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    No, that is completely silly. Election is sure, but assurance is a different matter. You are yet again confused by very simple distinction. Possession of salvation and possession of assurance are two very different things. The point of 2 Peter is that of assurance. Strangely enough, that is why it uses hte word "sure" combined with "make."

    And no, the author of Hebrews is not deceitful. That is a blasphemous charge against the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing. Those who are truly saved will not fall short. But some who think they are saved might fall short because they are not saved.

    What is unfortunate is that you do not study, you show no receptivity to the truth of God's word, you change it to suit you and deny it when you wish. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of that. You know better.
     
  7. Ben Elohim

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    PL: No, that is completely silly. Election is sure, but assurance is a different matter.

    BE: But you said one had to make his calling and election sure. Are you confused?

    And is your assurance not sure PL? Do tell.

    PL: You are yet again confused by very simple distinction. Possession of salvation and possession of assurance are two very different things.

    BE: I see. So the writer was warning these born again believers of a dreadful judgment to give them the assurance this could never happen to them right?


    PL: And no, the author of Hebrews is not deceitful. That is a blasphemous charge against the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing. Those who are truly saved will not fall short. But some who think they are saved might fall short because they are not saved.

    BE: So why bother warning them PL?

    PL: What is unfortunate is that you do not study, you show no receptivity to the truth of God's word, you change it to suit you and deny it when you wish. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of that. You know better.

    BE: Yes I know better PL. I see your contrivances coming from a mile away and I know the hole you are digging for yourself even if you are too far into denial to know yourself.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Yes, why is that confusing to you? This is talking about the individual's perspective. It is a command to pursue assurance.

    Mine is sure because I see those things happening in my life. If those things weren't happending, I would not have assurance.

    As I said already, he is warning them not to fall away so as to show their faith is not genuine. He is warning a group of people. He is not testifying as to their individual condition.

    I already answered that several times. Why do you keep asking the same thing over and over again?
     
  9. Ben Elohim

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    So your assurance is sure but you wish to say that you are not always sure if your assurance is sure. Is that correct PL?

    You have failed to explain why these people were warned by God that if they deliberately sin there is no longer any sacrifice for sins but a fearful punishment by God that will consume his adversaries. How does this relate to your "assurance" interpretation PL?
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    No, that is incorrect. REad closer.

    No, I didn't fail to explain that. I said: The point is to encourage people to demonstrate the reality of their faith by continuing to hold fast their profession and not forsake the local body of Christ (vv. 23, 25). There are some who will fall away and demonstrate that their faith was not real, that they had not been reconciled (3:14). Then I said, The author of Hebrews tells these born again believers this in order to encourage them to continue in the faith. You can see that in Heb 3, as well as all through the book. You failed to read close enough to see that I had answered your question.

    The point is to warn people not to fall away and repudiate Christ. IF they do, they will show themselves to have not been saved and they will be excluded from the sacrifice that they spurned. Why don't you come tomorrow at 9:30. I will address it at length.
     
  11. Ben Elohim

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    I see so you want to play the old, "they were never saved in the first place card" do ya?

    Well, sorry PL, but that just ain't a gonna work.

    Here is who he is talking to:

    Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

    For if WE go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth...

    These people are those who were santified (see verse 29, and we have the writer warning those who are born again that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins... a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries ... severer punishment (than the Law)..."

    Looks like you need to explain why born again believers themselves are warned in this way.

    After all, the Calvinist would never say such a thing about born again believers would he?
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    Why? I already explained it, then quoted it for you again.

    Just like the unbelieving spouse in 1 Cor 7? Just like the material things in the temple (Hebrews 7-10)? Quite clearly, sanctified does not always mean saved. It in fact, could be referring to Christ (John 17:19). So that is a weak argument.

    In fact they do and have. It started with Christ, then Paul, Peter, John, and has contineud right on through. The careful study of Scripture would bear that out.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Why? I already explained it, then quoted it for you again.

    Just like the unbelieving spouse in 1 Cor 7? Just like the material things in the temple (Hebrews 7-10)? Quite clearly, sanctified does not always mean saved. It in fact, could be referring to Christ (John 17:19). So that is a weak argument.

    In fact they do and have. It started with Christ, then Paul, Peter, John, and has contineud right on through. The careful study of Scripture would bear that out.

    Here is a sermon that will help your understanding of this difficult passage: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=1130392539
     
  14. Ben Elohim

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    For if WE go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth...

    1. Who is WE Larry?

    2. What does it say will happen to WE if they do this?
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    We are the people he is writing to, and himself. If they turn away from Christ, they will face God's judgment in hell. It is a warning to not do that.

    How in the world is that hard? I know you haven't had time to listen to that message yet. Start there, and get a little understanding of what you are dealing with. It will help tremendously.
     
  16. Ben Elohim

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    So why would he say that he himelf, if he turned away from Christ, would go to hell Larry?
     
  17. rc

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    Ben, don't you get tired of asking the same question? It's been answered completely by Larry and you just don't like the answer... I sure hope that you didn't believe that 1 plus 1 was 3 when you where a kid, your poor math teacher...

    Just typical Arminian simnple misunderstanding due to the lack of grammer. Always getting indicatives and imperatives confused... poor Ben.
    1 ad 1 is 2 by the way...
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ben;
    That was excellent conversation with Larry.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    That's not what he said. He said if he, or anyone else turned away, there was no other sacrifice. They had rejected their only sacrifice. Dying in that state would lead to hell. And yes, it is true about the author. If he were to do that, he would go to hell. It is true about anyone.
     
  20. Ben Elohim

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    PL: That's not what he said. He said if he, or anyone else turned away, there was no other sacrifice. They had rejected their only sacrifice. Dying in that state would lead to hell. And yes, it is true about the author. If he were to do that, he would go to hell. It is true about anyone.

    BE: And so this story comes to an end PL. What you are essentially saying is that the writer is warning these people, including the inspired writer of Hebrews, that if they do this they will go to hell. However, what you completely missed is one very important thing. If indeed he did this and Calvinism was true, he is a then a deceiver and he is manipulating these people by deception to behave a certain way by threatening them with a warning about the possibility of going to hell you say could never occur to a born again Christian.

    In other words, if the writer believed as you do that no one Christian could truly end up in hell, he was lying to them by presenting them with a hypothetical notion that cannot occur (according to you) and manipulating them with it and deceiving them into action with it.
     

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